After last week's article on falling birth rates, a lot of men blamed generational selfishness. (Kids today!) Here's what the sex that actually gives birth had to say...
I’m a baby boomer (b. 1960) who was taught in school that marriage and childbearing are oppressive to women. At the very last moment I thought “what if that’s wrong?” Also, my husband said it was okay if we didn’t have kids, but I knew he really wanted them.
I took the plunge and had two children at age 38 and 41. They are the joy of my life. To think that I almost didn’t have them because of a ridiculous ideology.
I once heard that a lot of women think they can be super Mom, super career woman, and super wife. You get to choose one of the three, and rarely get two. But all three ain’t happening.
Erma Bombeck, the late humorist and writer, also believed what I think you’re saying. She said, “Women can have it all. We just can’t really have it all at one time.”
as a girl I wanted 3 kids. Just married age 20 we had to work hard, we wanted to buy a house and have it ready when kids would come. Turned out I too could not have any. Which made it easier when our marriage did not work out and we divorced. Now I have a dog and a couple cats, used to have a whole lot more cats. No replacement but better than nothing.
It's hard to hear when people who want them can't have them. Do you think that contributed to your marriage failing or is it likely that you would have been a single mom in the long run? My mom and dad divorced when I was 11. Their marriage was no picnic, but my step dad was a terrible human being. Don't know that I would change anything since all roads lead to where I am now.
turned out that a little later, I had to have surgery and then all thoughts of children were over. We stayed married for another 10 years, but it never got any better between us. Mom and dad did not have the greatest of marriages, either. I hope you make the best of life, as do I !
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'll be 50 this week and I've managed to learn from my parents mistakes and carved out an amazing relationship with my wife and kids. Circumstances aside, life is a blessing and I'm glad you've found happiness, too.
I'm a Gen Jones. Gen Jones is the tiny blip between Boomers and Gen X (who used to be called the Baby Bust generation). I don't recall getting that particular message about the oppressive nature of marriage and motherhood, possibly because some of my schooling was in the local catholic school, and more likely, that my parents were immigrants from Italy, post-WWII. I did marry and had a child within our first two years of marriage, and then he left. I had always planned to have more but it didn't work out that way for me.
Generation Jones is something I read in a Philadelphia Inquirer article, probably in August of this year, regarding people who are technically boomers, but were born in the very late 50s and into 1963. I was born at the end of 1961. I think 1964 is when the epoch turned into Gen X. They described characteristics about us that are distinctly different than my classic Boomer husband, who was born in 1952. People like me watched The Brady Bunch, much like Gen X. Most of us are still working and not yet retired. Those sorts of differences mean a lot.
A lot of these mention selfishness. The funny thing is all my friends and myself being the good progressives we are believed having children was being selfish and for all the generic reasons... climate change, polution, overpopulation, etc AND that stay at home moms were lazy sacks! Like who couldn't be a mom!? We would make fun of it. Our jobs were VERY important. I found myself pregnant at 33 with my forever partner (we were dinks, not married, as I said...good progressives) and he wanted to keep it! The audacity! Well, i love him so I begrudgingly agreed. Needless to say my entire world turned upside down. I am a stay at home to my only child which is the hardest job I've ever had but hands down the most rewarding and as the saying goes shes the best thing to ever happen to me. I was pissed, I felt lied to, betrayed by a society that feeds bullshit to young girls saying "you can have it all why have a family!" And by "all" they mean a condo in a cold skyrise in a filthy city, just you and your dog hanging out at your local pub every night with other lonely losers. YAY! WiNNING! All my progressive friends have not changed, most single or dinks all childless. All sad and most will die alone. I blame society and whatever wave of feminist bullshit we're on.
I hate that a young girl doesn't dare say out loud now that she wants to be a mom when she grows up. The scorn and disdain thrown her way would be overwhelming. Things are so wrong anymore.
Back in the 80s and 90s, when I had kids, people would ask what I did for a living. I would reply that I was a stay at home mom. Inevitably the condescending response would be, well that's an important job too. I was a teacher before we started our family. After I had my first child, I thought it would be foolish to put my child in a daycare and spend 7 hours a day with other people's children. It was a simple choice for me, career or raising my kids? I chose my kids and have never regretted it.
I can't ever have a conversation with someone new - woman - without them inevitably asking what I do for a living. As soon as I say "stay at home mom" the tone changes and the conversation usually ends shortly thereafter. You'd think I had just told them I was contagious with Covid. So much sisterhooding going on :)
For a time, in my first marriage, I was a stay-at-home Dad when my oldest son was born. When I was asked what I did, I would tell them I was a "Mr. Mom" and that "my job's hard too!" That immediately broke the ice, as they would laugh, and, they instantly knew that I knew what they were thinking. ;-)
Your post is the grittiest most eye opening post I've read all day. I'm going to screenshot it and send it to my 16 yo daughter. We speak about these issues a lot so she's had years of my influence, but I'll soon be less influential. What advice would you give her?
I hope she listens, I never listened to my dad and as it turns out he was right about pretty much everything. My sister and laugh about him being a prognosticator!
She has her moments, but she listens. She even comes to me with her own questions or when she’s struggling. I’ve always had an “anything is on the table” policy since they were old enough to talk. I think that helps.
I had an amazing upbringing. My mom sewed all the costumes for school plays and my friends still call my dad just "Dad". Wonderful parents(a bit spiritual imo), wouldn't change a second of it for the world. Their mistake was raising kids in a city. It makes me laugh thinking about the arguments I had with my dad as a child... a womans right to choose and Mitsubishi destroying the rainforest (courtesy CA public education) LOL. Peers, music, culture, teachers, idols (now called influencers). Society as a whole has a HUGE influence on young girls. Being a millennial i cant even imagine how it is for gen z who has social media feeding them the destructive bs DIRECT all-day everyday.
I think you are on to something here. Grew up in NYC now live in a small town and I feel like my thinking has completely changed. I love being a mom and only wish I could have more kids. After hurting my back, I could not return to teaching. I now see that as a blessing allowing me to be a stay-at-home mom! I was recently at a function where somewhere asked people in a group what they did for a living. When one lady said, "I am just a stay-at-home mom the facilitator said, "that's ok." It made me realize how little value society puts on the most important job in the world. (And I realized I am guilty of often downplaying my current role too) It is time we start teaching our kids being a parent is the hardest, most rewarding job in the world and certainly the most valuable!!!
Dara, you nailed it. Almost. Sadly, not everyone actually chooses to not have kids. I did go through a phase where I thought having kids was "selfish." But at the same time, I was also dating some pretty selfish men who didn't give a shit about me. They were just looking for the next best thing. At about 30, I realized I really did want kids. And I'd probably be really happy staying at home, cooking, cleaning, and doing crafty things. But, I was also unwilling to be a single mom. And, if there are no men who want to marry you and have kids, then you're shit out of luck. Of course, I have lots of friends who chose to have kids, in spite of never meeting a partner. (I have friends whose kids are now fully launched, and they still haven't met a life partner.) I really thought it was all or nothing for me. I only wanted the nuclear family. Now, at 54, I'm definitely thinking maybe I should have chosen the path that those friends did. At least they have their one kid. On the other hand, I do have a friend whose only son died. She adopted him as a single mom. And now she is alone. But, she did have him, for a while. And that is worth so much.
I have two medically fragile children which my husband and I adopted from foster care; this was after raising three biological children. Yes, it’s a lot of work, but they are the absolute joy of our lives. I was 48 when we adopted the youngest child. He’s nine years old now and he is keeping me active and young. I started my parenting journey in 1988 when our daughter was born. I definitely see the difference between parenting the first three and parenting now. I am way more laidback than my parenting peers. It makes me sad that these young moms worry so much. Just enjoy your kids! It’ll all be alright. Stay off social media, stop reading all the parenting blogs and just be a parent using your personality, values and gifts.
That's really amazing you adopted kids after yours were grown. Those parents who parent by the book drive me crazy. I remember one woman who had two sons, who were 3 and 5. They were the worst behaved kids I had ever seen. We were at a neighbor's gathering and the youngest was on the floor screaming and kicking his feet into the neighbor's white walls leaving dirty marks. The older one was turning the lights off and on in a rapid fashion. After they left I made a comment to the neighbor who hosted the party about how those kids were out of control and their mother was unable to make them stop. She replied her friend was a good mother because she reads lots of parenting books. WTF???
Thanks! We feel so blessed to have the boys. It’s been really challenging at times but they are so strong and resilient and I am so proud of all they have overcome and accomplished.
To your point- I feel as if the parenting pendulum has gone from one extreme to the other- authoritarian to permissive. Children need authoritative parenting- structure with nurture. Respect for others and for property is high on my structure list. ;)
Yes!! I understand that human beings are rarely good at finding the balance in anything. Born in 1975, I was on the tail-end of "authoritative" and baby sat the first of the "permissive". That group of kids in the early 90s seem like angels compared to the results of "permissiveness".
Respect for anyone or anything has to be in place for children to feel safe. Structure helps children feel safe.
Someone taught me once: Rules minus relationship equals rebellion.
The idea was, if you are 100% authoritarian, to the point where a child feels nothing other than that from you, i.e., you don't really have a relationship with them, you'll get rebellion. If your relationship overwhelms, to the point where you don't have any real rules at all, you'll get chaos. The lesson was to balance rules with relationship.
Exactly! Structure/nurture balance. I also remind myself “connection before correction” when I need to address an unwanted behavior from one of my children. They will be way more receptive to your correction when you connect with them first.
I am a 41 year old woman with 2 kids. I grew up in a family of 6 (2 parents, 4 kids). It was chaotic. I wanted my kids to have a sibling, but felt we should stop at two to afford the lifestyle we want. I live in New England and houses here are $1 mil for a run down 70s kitchen/bathroom house. It’s absurd. We’re lucky we got a house when we did because we couldn’t afford our house if we bought it today.
I know a lot of boomer grandparents (including my own) who don’t want to help out with their grandkids because it’s their time to travel, rest, party, etc. Meanwhile, my grandparents helped my parents out a ton. I do it all (work full time outside the home, homeschool our kids, clean/cook). My husband and I work opposite shifts so we can also homeschool our kids (they’ve never ever worn a mask). It’s all exhausting. I almost never catch a break.
But even though it’s exhausting, I’d never trade it for anything. They are bright, creative, fun, sweet souls. I love them so much.
There are so many women with fertility issues (my older sister had to do IVF for her kids) or mental health issues (my younger sister unfortunately). But if I couldn’t have had children, I resolved to be happy without.
I do wish I could be a stay at home mom, but it’s too expensive in my area (and we do have used cars -per another poster’s comments).
So many women with fertility issues, it’s crazy. And the boomer grandparent situation is depressing. My parents and my husbands father have been very disappointing in that regard, but it is what it is. It has definitely made us determined to be there for our grandchildren.
One of the most destructive things to the family unit was having grandma and grandpa run off to sunny climates to live in a 55+ community to relive being in high school again.
I'm sorry that your parents, and indeed many others, are reluctant to help. I can recall my own grandmother helping my mother with the 4 of us. I did the calculation recently, after my own daughter had baby number 3, 15 months after baby number 2 was born, and realized that my mother had three under 3 at one point! And my mother helped both my sister and me with our combined 3. As a result, and thanks to making the decision several years ago to step away from the workforce and work with my husband on his business, I'm able to help my daughter pretty much daily with whatever she needs with her 3 very young children. It's exhausting, yes, but I also wouldn't miss a thing.
My husband and I would love to help with our grandkids but our daughter and her husband moved four and a half hours away to NH before they started a family. We were left alone in our home state in New England where we both were born and raised. As you said the cost of living is very expensive in the northeast. We were priced out of retiring there so we moved south for better weather. There's no way we could afford to live near my daughter and her family in NH. We have been begging her to move near us. She works from home and her husband is a physician's assistant at a hospital. Our area is growing and we are in need of medical personnel. Homes are less expensive. The kids would not have to go to daycare because we would be able to watch them. My granddaughter is now 5 now and they are still in NH.
I'm 56 with two kids. I can't believe how many of my smart, wonderful peers never ended up having any. Society really lost out.
When I was in college, I was inundated with Cosmopolitan magazine and Oprah telling me over and over that career was everything and that a man should just be a second thought. I could do it all - or so they said. I really took it to heart and fortunately in my mid-30's started seeing the light of an empty life ahead of me if I didn't change course. I met a great guy and because he wanted kids... I realized I wanted them. Are kids easy? Of course not - but our lives would be meaningless without them. Expensive vacations, sleeping in and pricey dinners are a big zero in the big picture.
I did leave an interesting career to be a stay at home mom; that's a whole 'nother can of worms. I know working moms and women see me as less than. Of course they don't come out and say it... but it's there. The dismissal is always from women - never men. So much to say about all of this, but I'll stop here or it will turn into a novel :)
The birthrate of Israeli Jews has been rising over the past decade or more to comfortably above replacement level. They have about the same living standard as we do and the same modern temptations, so why do they have children?
I think it has to do with what Ofir Haivry called "the shared sense of an Israeli nation-family" and that family realizing that the family won't continue to exist unless there are enough children born.
This raises two questions for the Americans. The first is do we any longer have a sense of an American nation-family as I think we used to have? The next question is do we realize that no children means no more family? Do we understand that the way to best insure an old age that is not merely suffering is to have prosperous children or children period?
RE: The first is do we any longer have a sense of an American nation-family as I think we used to have?
At 74 I've watched a lot of things change. One thing is that immigration in the past was not excessive and those who came here wanted to be Americans and integrate into the society. They learned English and were proud to be American, which is what most of them came here for. The children of immigrants did this quickly and successfully.
Now, it sure seems that the flood of immigrants leads to rather insular immigrant communities and people don't melt into the American culture as they did previously.
I'm almost as old and have seen the same thing and don't think it is entirely the immigrants fault. Looking back it seems there were a lot of Americans who discouraged immigrants quickly assimilating because they saw that as a way to harm their own country. Long ago, when local broadcast TV was a big thing, after midnight there were many commercials advertising local english language schools while during the day there were news stories about American activists pushing bi-lingual instruction in the schools.
One thing I wonder is what will happen when the next big war comes and we need a lot of men to fight and die for our country. Will all those young men streaming north across the border decide the Big Rock Candy Mountain ain't so great when they are faced with a draft and stream back to where they came from? We will see.
Another thing to consider is: What’s going on with dating? 7 or 8 years ago a couple of coworkers were discussing the dating world these days, both saying how miserable it is. I have a very attractive early 30’s daughter who is so discouraged by her last experience 4 years ago that she refuses to date. It does seem like there is some peculiar behavior going on these days.
Yes! Similar situation with our 31 year old, pretty and single, daughter. Though I’d ask - where have all of the real men gone?
PS My husband and I travel 5 hours at least once a month to our other daughter’s (they’re homeschoolers) to help with the grandkids and their home. We live for it and wish we were closer ...not all boomers are selfish.
I had a crush on the girl next door from the time I was 12 until I was 18. I had a girlfriend in college, briefly. I joined eHarmony in 2006, never got anywhere with it, not a single date, hardly a conversation. I went out with a few girls in the late 90's and early 2000s, would get attached to them, but they would either get married (have kids) and/or move away. I joined Bumble several years ago, went out with a couple of older women with kids. The years went by - I'm turning 54 this Sunday. I used to joke, out of exasperation, that guys with a bike, a beard, and a backpack were starting families, why couldn't I? It just wasn't in the cards for me, I suppose. Most seem to have it figured out, they meet someone and get married, have kids. It's pretty natural. They were the normal kids in high school, the ones who weren't the over-achievers. They went to parties, didn't bother with honors classes or worry about getting straight A's. They enjoyed life. If they went to college, they made it count. I look back, amazed that all my cousins got married and had kids, and they did it in their 20's! I just didn't know how to do whatever it was that they were doing. Congratulations to those of you who have had children! Those of us who haven't are often befuddled by why we haven't. Rather than call us selfish, consider this, that we find those who get married and have children to be in possession mysterious powers! The rest of us are just incompetent lol. That's why those that have that mysterious power need to use it! Have as many kids as possible! Our ancestors regularly had families of 10 kids. We've become too soft, afraid to get out hands dirty, afraid of germs! We've become a neurotic lot preoccupied with false gods. Our lawmakers have noticed and they have taken advantage of us. They say what they say to steal our birthright. Read the 10 Commandments, follow them, and use them to judge those who would rule over you!
The fact that the French author Andre Gide, who preferred to live his life as an exultant pederast (his own description), had but one single sexual encounter with woman in his entire life, by which he sired a daughter (at the age of 54!), should be taken as evidence that God alone is the true author of life and death, and He works in mysterious ways.
In the natural course of things, there couldn't be anybody less likely to have a child than Andre Gide, and yet he did. On the other hand, how many millions of brave, healthy, kind, decent young men have been blown up on the battlefields of Europe without ever getting the chance to start a family?
There is definitely something else that governs the destinies of men, independently of our own choices and wills. Some people inexplicably have children, and some people inexplicably don't, and we will not know why until we see the whole plan revealed on the last day.
I was really worried about my older daughter who didn't date much in college. The best place to find a mate is college but you don't ever hear anyone talk about that. My younger daughter found her mate in college. My older daughter met her husband using a dating app. I was extremely leery about that as she lived in NYC at the time. It worked out for her, she was smart about it and now they live happily in the midwest where they could afford a home.
Probably something to this. I met my husband before dating apps really took off and Facebook was nacient but I can't imagine that landscape now . I have not heard good things 😨
well it's true. some people will be bad parents. I don't think it's good for the children to be born to people who don't want them. I've heard it said that they "might" change their minds afterwards...but what if they don't?
I suspect that the necessity that most women work outside the home has been a significant contributor to the childbearing slump. Children are a full-time job in themselves and combining that with work outside the home is onerous.
Interesting comments. I tend to lean towards the reason being selfishness. That, and fear. I wonder how many younger people that grew up watching Captain Planet and hear the constant drumbeat of climate doom and gloom feel it's ok to have kids. Attitudes about children have changed, too. Obama said it best, didn't he? He didn't want his girls "punished with a baby." Damn, kids are not a punishment, even when they are unplanned. I didn't plan either of my kiddos and had my youngest at 42. I think my husband would have liked more kids but pregnancy was rough on me.
The comment regarding fear of having a disabled child was disturbing to me. My youngest has Down syndrome. While not severely disabled he may not be able to be very independent as an adult. He's 9 now so I guess time will tell. Regardless of the challenges he is the light of my life. He's the kid I never knew I needed. Everyone adores him. He is funny, sweet, and one of the most empathetic kids I've ever met. I think of all those babies with DS that are aborted every year in the western world and it just sickens me. It's estimated that 70% of children diagnosed with DS in the womb are aborted in the US. It's 90%+ in European countries. Just heartbreaking.
Alex, I appreciate that you are passionate about this topic, but it stings. The reasons I didn't have children and won't have grandbabies are:
1. I met my husband too late, when I was 42 and he was 48. By that time, he did not want to have another child (he was already the father of a 13-year-old).
2. I needed a hysterectomy three years after we met, and the required fertility counseling revealed that I was infertile anyway (after all those years--now rendered a waste of money and hormonal hackery--on the pill).
So, no grandbabies for me. (The stepdaughter opted out of a relationship with me, and lives 1,500 miles away, so even if she has kids, we won't be physically close to them.) I really hope if she does have kids, they look JUST LIKE HER FATHER.
I stumbled upon the book Domestic Extremist by Peachy Keenan. While very satirical, I think it aptly describes our society, culture, and the costs of the feminist movements very well. Wish I had that book gifted to me as a young woman instead of Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. But alas, the book wasn’t written yet… There were a lot of aha! moments in it for me, as a career-driven women in an engineering field turned mom of 3.
I think there are a lot of cultural issues at play. Selfishness, certainly. Laziness, self absorption. We do not value mothers, motherhood, nurturing, any of it. We put tremendous pressure on the women who do have children to raise perfect, well rounded children but we do not support them. Our culture is not child friendly and the current way of having a family is to basically stay home when your 2-3 children are young and keep a strict bedtime and then you venture out years later when they are bigger. Then you put your kids in preschool, with peers, and your social activities revolve around same age children. Instead of as it used to be, where parents friendships did not revolve around the children, so ages were often more mixed. We don’t have neighborhoods full of kids playing. Kids are much more centered than they ever have been. (We’ve largely removed boredom, and I think that was a great mistake, but that’s a different subject.) My point being - few people now grow up with any real positive experience of children and babies. I think this compartmentalization is an issue as well.
When my now baby boomer parents were young parents, their friends would come to visit. My siblings and I enjoyed the novelty of having extra people in the house and special snacks! We didn't need to be told that the guests were not there for us. Nor were we told to go away.
When visiting relatives, we sat and listened to the adults talk. It never occurred to us that we should do anything differently. At times, a baby might be around to entertain us. That baby was the most interesting thing in the room!
I think you may be onto something with people of all ages mixing regularly. Being shuffled from peer-group to peer-group exclusively can stunt growth.
Thank you, Alex! We are expecting first grand baby next year - I can’t wait! My fiends are so excited for me. My kids are overjoyed. I agree babies need very little outside of love. I constantly convey how wonderful parenting is! Wouldn’t trade it in for more “experiences”. As a SAHM, society always devalued my contributions. I have offered my services to help the kids - I’m lucky I have great health and stamina. I pray for many more babies in my future. And yes, my kids live in high rent cities. Fortunately, there is an abundance of childcare options before they find a neighborhood with fields and schools to settle down. And, if they plan well, they can manage on one income and enjoy Friday pizza nights at home like we did.
This topic has got me searching my soul a bit. I am 56, happily married for almost 30 years, childless by choice. I can’t point to a single reason why, but I’ll share a few. 1. I have older brothers who started families when I was in my early 20’s. None of those kids had a lot of discipline and frankly, visiting my family literally gave me headaches. (Thankfully my nieces and nephews survived their rearing and all turned out to be pretty great humans. I am a devoted aunt and great aunt!) 2. I went to a high powered university and definitely got the indoctrination that women can do and have it all. I never really thought that was accurate and saw many friends and coworkers struggling with their jobs and families and often their marriages as a result. 3. Probably most importantly, I never felt a maternal urge or drive. 4. I definitely drank the KoolAid that the world was overpopulated, and I did feel like I was helping the planet with my “sacrifice”. 5. My husband also did not want children, so there was no pressure there. 6. This just came to me, but I have always been a people pleaser, and my dad was always so proud of my academic and career success, and I might have felt subconsciously that I would have let him down if I “threw it all away” to be a mother. In reality, I’m sure he would have been proud of me regardless. I’m not sure if this was really a factor because I certainly didn’t please my mom - she wanted me to have children.
I don’t regret my choice but I have certainly wondered and sometimes doubted if I made the right one. Funny, you don’t meet many people who regret either choice, but I think we all probably make the best of the results of the decisions we make in this crazy life.
yes, same for me mostly. lots of rhetoric in the 70's and 80's that having kids and getting married would "ruin" a woman's life and make her "dependent upon men" -- a big no-no! It seems like the stigma of the "unwed mother" and the "teen mom" has largely gone away now as well. But back then there was a certain order to things -- get married, then have kids, and moms stayed home to raise them. It took me until my 30s to find a spouse! (I'm a huge nerd.)
I’m a baby boomer (b. 1960) who was taught in school that marriage and childbearing are oppressive to women. At the very last moment I thought “what if that’s wrong?” Also, my husband said it was okay if we didn’t have kids, but I knew he really wanted them.
I took the plunge and had two children at age 38 and 41. They are the joy of my life. To think that I almost didn’t have them because of a ridiculous ideology.
The cultural message for me was more "women can do it all." No, we really can't. It's not "balance," it's choices.
I once heard that a lot of women think they can be super Mom, super career woman, and super wife. You get to choose one of the three, and rarely get two. But all three ain’t happening.
From some grandmothers, I heard you can have all three, but not at the same time.
Erma Bombeck, the late humorist and writer, also believed what I think you’re saying. She said, “Women can have it all. We just can’t really have it all at one time.”
That is TELLing a BB' er was being taught that. Show's just how long America has been under siege!
as a girl I wanted 3 kids. Just married age 20 we had to work hard, we wanted to buy a house and have it ready when kids would come. Turned out I too could not have any. Which made it easier when our marriage did not work out and we divorced. Now I have a dog and a couple cats, used to have a whole lot more cats. No replacement but better than nothing.
Sorry you couldn't have children.
You could consider being a foster mother or mentoring children. There's more than one way to be a mother (or father).
It's hard to hear when people who want them can't have them. Do you think that contributed to your marriage failing or is it likely that you would have been a single mom in the long run? My mom and dad divorced when I was 11. Their marriage was no picnic, but my step dad was a terrible human being. Don't know that I would change anything since all roads lead to where I am now.
turned out that a little later, I had to have surgery and then all thoughts of children were over. We stayed married for another 10 years, but it never got any better between us. Mom and dad did not have the greatest of marriages, either. I hope you make the best of life, as do I !
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'll be 50 this week and I've managed to learn from my parents mistakes and carved out an amazing relationship with my wife and kids. Circumstances aside, life is a blessing and I'm glad you've found happiness, too.
I'm a Gen Jones. Gen Jones is the tiny blip between Boomers and Gen X (who used to be called the Baby Bust generation). I don't recall getting that particular message about the oppressive nature of marriage and motherhood, possibly because some of my schooling was in the local catholic school, and more likely, that my parents were immigrants from Italy, post-WWII. I did marry and had a child within our first two years of marriage, and then he left. I had always planned to have more but it didn't work out that way for me.
I am seeing that attitudes vary culturally even today. Region might matter, too. What are the years for "Gen Jones"? I haven't heard of that before.
Generation Jones is something I read in a Philadelphia Inquirer article, probably in August of this year, regarding people who are technically boomers, but were born in the very late 50s and into 1963. I was born at the end of 1961. I think 1964 is when the epoch turned into Gen X. They described characteristics about us that are distinctly different than my classic Boomer husband, who was born in 1952. People like me watched The Brady Bunch, much like Gen X. Most of us are still working and not yet retired. Those sorts of differences mean a lot.
Agree: my husband was born in 1960 and he's no Boomer. I'm 1966 and most definitely Gen X!
Gen X... the last great generation! LOL
'73 here. ;)
That makes sense. I was born in 1960 but don’t share a lot of experiences/values with my older Woodstock era Boomer cousins.
I’ve never heard of Generation Jones. Thanks for sharing.
That makes a lot of sense! Thanks for that!
I should add that I was a product of our “elite” school system.
So my parents’ hard earned tuition money almost bought them no grandchildren.
A lot of these mention selfishness. The funny thing is all my friends and myself being the good progressives we are believed having children was being selfish and for all the generic reasons... climate change, polution, overpopulation, etc AND that stay at home moms were lazy sacks! Like who couldn't be a mom!? We would make fun of it. Our jobs were VERY important. I found myself pregnant at 33 with my forever partner (we were dinks, not married, as I said...good progressives) and he wanted to keep it! The audacity! Well, i love him so I begrudgingly agreed. Needless to say my entire world turned upside down. I am a stay at home to my only child which is the hardest job I've ever had but hands down the most rewarding and as the saying goes shes the best thing to ever happen to me. I was pissed, I felt lied to, betrayed by a society that feeds bullshit to young girls saying "you can have it all why have a family!" And by "all" they mean a condo in a cold skyrise in a filthy city, just you and your dog hanging out at your local pub every night with other lonely losers. YAY! WiNNING! All my progressive friends have not changed, most single or dinks all childless. All sad and most will die alone. I blame society and whatever wave of feminist bullshit we're on.
I hate that a young girl doesn't dare say out loud now that she wants to be a mom when she grows up. The scorn and disdain thrown her way would be overwhelming. Things are so wrong anymore.
I said it once to someone as a senior in high school and never said it again due to the response. (1992)
I love this, Dara. Thanks for sharing, hopefully others will read it and change their minds about having children.
Back in the 80s and 90s, when I had kids, people would ask what I did for a living. I would reply that I was a stay at home mom. Inevitably the condescending response would be, well that's an important job too. I was a teacher before we started our family. After I had my first child, I thought it would be foolish to put my child in a daycare and spend 7 hours a day with other people's children. It was a simple choice for me, career or raising my kids? I chose my kids and have never regretted it.
I can't ever have a conversation with someone new - woman - without them inevitably asking what I do for a living. As soon as I say "stay at home mom" the tone changes and the conversation usually ends shortly thereafter. You'd think I had just told them I was contagious with Covid. So much sisterhooding going on :)
For a time, in my first marriage, I was a stay-at-home Dad when my oldest son was born. When I was asked what I did, I would tell them I was a "Mr. Mom" and that "my job's hard too!" That immediately broke the ice, as they would laugh, and, they instantly knew that I knew what they were thinking. ;-)
Your post is the grittiest most eye opening post I've read all day. I'm going to screenshot it and send it to my 16 yo daughter. We speak about these issues a lot so she's had years of my influence, but I'll soon be less influential. What advice would you give her?
I hope she listens, I never listened to my dad and as it turns out he was right about pretty much everything. My sister and laugh about him being a prognosticator!
She has her moments, but she listens. She even comes to me with her own questions or when she’s struggling. I’ve always had an “anything is on the table” policy since they were old enough to talk. I think that helps.
Fascinating, but why blame "society?" Did your parents or extended family have no influence at all in your beliefs as you were growing up?
I had an amazing upbringing. My mom sewed all the costumes for school plays and my friends still call my dad just "Dad". Wonderful parents(a bit spiritual imo), wouldn't change a second of it for the world. Their mistake was raising kids in a city. It makes me laugh thinking about the arguments I had with my dad as a child... a womans right to choose and Mitsubishi destroying the rainforest (courtesy CA public education) LOL. Peers, music, culture, teachers, idols (now called influencers). Society as a whole has a HUGE influence on young girls. Being a millennial i cant even imagine how it is for gen z who has social media feeding them the destructive bs DIRECT all-day everyday.
I think you are on to something here. Grew up in NYC now live in a small town and I feel like my thinking has completely changed. I love being a mom and only wish I could have more kids. After hurting my back, I could not return to teaching. I now see that as a blessing allowing me to be a stay-at-home mom! I was recently at a function where somewhere asked people in a group what they did for a living. When one lady said, "I am just a stay-at-home mom the facilitator said, "that's ok." It made me realize how little value society puts on the most important job in the world. (And I realized I am guilty of often downplaying my current role too) It is time we start teaching our kids being a parent is the hardest, most rewarding job in the world and certainly the most valuable!!!
Dara, you nailed it. Almost. Sadly, not everyone actually chooses to not have kids. I did go through a phase where I thought having kids was "selfish." But at the same time, I was also dating some pretty selfish men who didn't give a shit about me. They were just looking for the next best thing. At about 30, I realized I really did want kids. And I'd probably be really happy staying at home, cooking, cleaning, and doing crafty things. But, I was also unwilling to be a single mom. And, if there are no men who want to marry you and have kids, then you're shit out of luck. Of course, I have lots of friends who chose to have kids, in spite of never meeting a partner. (I have friends whose kids are now fully launched, and they still haven't met a life partner.) I really thought it was all or nothing for me. I only wanted the nuclear family. Now, at 54, I'm definitely thinking maybe I should have chosen the path that those friends did. At least they have their one kid. On the other hand, I do have a friend whose only son died. She adopted him as a single mom. And now she is alone. But, she did have him, for a while. And that is worth so much.
I have two medically fragile children which my husband and I adopted from foster care; this was after raising three biological children. Yes, it’s a lot of work, but they are the absolute joy of our lives. I was 48 when we adopted the youngest child. He’s nine years old now and he is keeping me active and young. I started my parenting journey in 1988 when our daughter was born. I definitely see the difference between parenting the first three and parenting now. I am way more laidback than my parenting peers. It makes me sad that these young moms worry so much. Just enjoy your kids! It’ll all be alright. Stay off social media, stop reading all the parenting blogs and just be a parent using your personality, values and gifts.
God Bless you.
That's really amazing you adopted kids after yours were grown. Those parents who parent by the book drive me crazy. I remember one woman who had two sons, who were 3 and 5. They were the worst behaved kids I had ever seen. We were at a neighbor's gathering and the youngest was on the floor screaming and kicking his feet into the neighbor's white walls leaving dirty marks. The older one was turning the lights off and on in a rapid fashion. After they left I made a comment to the neighbor who hosted the party about how those kids were out of control and their mother was unable to make them stop. She replied her friend was a good mother because she reads lots of parenting books. WTF???
Thanks! We feel so blessed to have the boys. It’s been really challenging at times but they are so strong and resilient and I am so proud of all they have overcome and accomplished.
To your point- I feel as if the parenting pendulum has gone from one extreme to the other- authoritarian to permissive. Children need authoritative parenting- structure with nurture. Respect for others and for property is high on my structure list. ;)
Yes!! I understand that human beings are rarely good at finding the balance in anything. Born in 1975, I was on the tail-end of "authoritative" and baby sat the first of the "permissive". That group of kids in the early 90s seem like angels compared to the results of "permissiveness".
Respect for anyone or anything has to be in place for children to feel safe. Structure helps children feel safe.
Someone taught me once: Rules minus relationship equals rebellion.
The idea was, if you are 100% authoritarian, to the point where a child feels nothing other than that from you, i.e., you don't really have a relationship with them, you'll get rebellion. If your relationship overwhelms, to the point where you don't have any real rules at all, you'll get chaos. The lesson was to balance rules with relationship.
That is a perfect explanation. Thank you for sharing that.
Exactly! Structure/nurture balance. I also remind myself “connection before correction” when I need to address an unwanted behavior from one of my children. They will be way more receptive to your correction when you connect with them first.
I am a 41 year old woman with 2 kids. I grew up in a family of 6 (2 parents, 4 kids). It was chaotic. I wanted my kids to have a sibling, but felt we should stop at two to afford the lifestyle we want. I live in New England and houses here are $1 mil for a run down 70s kitchen/bathroom house. It’s absurd. We’re lucky we got a house when we did because we couldn’t afford our house if we bought it today.
I know a lot of boomer grandparents (including my own) who don’t want to help out with their grandkids because it’s their time to travel, rest, party, etc. Meanwhile, my grandparents helped my parents out a ton. I do it all (work full time outside the home, homeschool our kids, clean/cook). My husband and I work opposite shifts so we can also homeschool our kids (they’ve never ever worn a mask). It’s all exhausting. I almost never catch a break.
But even though it’s exhausting, I’d never trade it for anything. They are bright, creative, fun, sweet souls. I love them so much.
There are so many women with fertility issues (my older sister had to do IVF for her kids) or mental health issues (my younger sister unfortunately). But if I couldn’t have had children, I resolved to be happy without.
I do wish I could be a stay at home mom, but it’s too expensive in my area (and we do have used cars -per another poster’s comments).
So many women with fertility issues, it’s crazy. And the boomer grandparent situation is depressing. My parents and my husbands father have been very disappointing in that regard, but it is what it is. It has definitely made us determined to be there for our grandchildren.
One of the most destructive things to the family unit was having grandma and grandpa run off to sunny climates to live in a 55+ community to relive being in high school again.
I'm sorry that your parents, and indeed many others, are reluctant to help. I can recall my own grandmother helping my mother with the 4 of us. I did the calculation recently, after my own daughter had baby number 3, 15 months after baby number 2 was born, and realized that my mother had three under 3 at one point! And my mother helped both my sister and me with our combined 3. As a result, and thanks to making the decision several years ago to step away from the workforce and work with my husband on his business, I'm able to help my daughter pretty much daily with whatever she needs with her 3 very young children. It's exhausting, yes, but I also wouldn't miss a thing.
My husband and I would love to help with our grandkids but our daughter and her husband moved four and a half hours away to NH before they started a family. We were left alone in our home state in New England where we both were born and raised. As you said the cost of living is very expensive in the northeast. We were priced out of retiring there so we moved south for better weather. There's no way we could afford to live near my daughter and her family in NH. We have been begging her to move near us. She works from home and her husband is a physician's assistant at a hospital. Our area is growing and we are in need of medical personnel. Homes are less expensive. The kids would not have to go to daycare because we would be able to watch them. My granddaughter is now 5 now and they are still in NH.
I'm 56 with two kids. I can't believe how many of my smart, wonderful peers never ended up having any. Society really lost out.
When I was in college, I was inundated with Cosmopolitan magazine and Oprah telling me over and over that career was everything and that a man should just be a second thought. I could do it all - or so they said. I really took it to heart and fortunately in my mid-30's started seeing the light of an empty life ahead of me if I didn't change course. I met a great guy and because he wanted kids... I realized I wanted them. Are kids easy? Of course not - but our lives would be meaningless without them. Expensive vacations, sleeping in and pricey dinners are a big zero in the big picture.
I did leave an interesting career to be a stay at home mom; that's a whole 'nother can of worms. I know working moms and women see me as less than. Of course they don't come out and say it... but it's there. The dismissal is always from women - never men. So much to say about all of this, but I'll stop here or it will turn into a novel :)
The birthrate of Israeli Jews has been rising over the past decade or more to comfortably above replacement level. They have about the same living standard as we do and the same modern temptations, so why do they have children?
I think it has to do with what Ofir Haivry called "the shared sense of an Israeli nation-family" and that family realizing that the family won't continue to exist unless there are enough children born.
This raises two questions for the Americans. The first is do we any longer have a sense of an American nation-family as I think we used to have? The next question is do we realize that no children means no more family? Do we understand that the way to best insure an old age that is not merely suffering is to have prosperous children or children period?
RE: The first is do we any longer have a sense of an American nation-family as I think we used to have?
At 74 I've watched a lot of things change. One thing is that immigration in the past was not excessive and those who came here wanted to be Americans and integrate into the society. They learned English and were proud to be American, which is what most of them came here for. The children of immigrants did this quickly and successfully.
Now, it sure seems that the flood of immigrants leads to rather insular immigrant communities and people don't melt into the American culture as they did previously.
I'm almost as old and have seen the same thing and don't think it is entirely the immigrants fault. Looking back it seems there were a lot of Americans who discouraged immigrants quickly assimilating because they saw that as a way to harm their own country. Long ago, when local broadcast TV was a big thing, after midnight there were many commercials advertising local english language schools while during the day there were news stories about American activists pushing bi-lingual instruction in the schools.
One thing I wonder is what will happen when the next big war comes and we need a lot of men to fight and die for our country. Will all those young men streaming north across the border decide the Big Rock Candy Mountain ain't so great when they are faced with a draft and stream back to where they came from? We will see.
Another thing to consider is: What’s going on with dating? 7 or 8 years ago a couple of coworkers were discussing the dating world these days, both saying how miserable it is. I have a very attractive early 30’s daughter who is so discouraged by her last experience 4 years ago that she refuses to date. It does seem like there is some peculiar behavior going on these days.
Yes! Similar situation with our 31 year old, pretty and single, daughter. Though I’d ask - where have all of the real men gone?
PS My husband and I travel 5 hours at least once a month to our other daughter’s (they’re homeschoolers) to help with the grandkids and their home. We live for it and wish we were closer ...not all boomers are selfish.
I had a crush on the girl next door from the time I was 12 until I was 18. I had a girlfriend in college, briefly. I joined eHarmony in 2006, never got anywhere with it, not a single date, hardly a conversation. I went out with a few girls in the late 90's and early 2000s, would get attached to them, but they would either get married (have kids) and/or move away. I joined Bumble several years ago, went out with a couple of older women with kids. The years went by - I'm turning 54 this Sunday. I used to joke, out of exasperation, that guys with a bike, a beard, and a backpack were starting families, why couldn't I? It just wasn't in the cards for me, I suppose. Most seem to have it figured out, they meet someone and get married, have kids. It's pretty natural. They were the normal kids in high school, the ones who weren't the over-achievers. They went to parties, didn't bother with honors classes or worry about getting straight A's. They enjoyed life. If they went to college, they made it count. I look back, amazed that all my cousins got married and had kids, and they did it in their 20's! I just didn't know how to do whatever it was that they were doing. Congratulations to those of you who have had children! Those of us who haven't are often befuddled by why we haven't. Rather than call us selfish, consider this, that we find those who get married and have children to be in possession mysterious powers! The rest of us are just incompetent lol. That's why those that have that mysterious power need to use it! Have as many kids as possible! Our ancestors regularly had families of 10 kids. We've become too soft, afraid to get out hands dirty, afraid of germs! We've become a neurotic lot preoccupied with false gods. Our lawmakers have noticed and they have taken advantage of us. They say what they say to steal our birthright. Read the 10 Commandments, follow them, and use them to judge those who would rule over you!
The fact that the French author Andre Gide, who preferred to live his life as an exultant pederast (his own description), had but one single sexual encounter with woman in his entire life, by which he sired a daughter (at the age of 54!), should be taken as evidence that God alone is the true author of life and death, and He works in mysterious ways.
In the natural course of things, there couldn't be anybody less likely to have a child than Andre Gide, and yet he did. On the other hand, how many millions of brave, healthy, kind, decent young men have been blown up on the battlefields of Europe without ever getting the chance to start a family?
There is definitely something else that governs the destinies of men, independently of our own choices and wills. Some people inexplicably have children, and some people inexplicably don't, and we will not know why until we see the whole plan revealed on the last day.
Don't be discouraged. My husband was 50 when he got married. We have two adorable boyt
Pornography. It’s changed everything from dating to marriage. Totally toxic
I agree there. I can't believe it's not discussed more.
I was really worried about my older daughter who didn't date much in college. The best place to find a mate is college but you don't ever hear anyone talk about that. My younger daughter found her mate in college. My older daughter met her husband using a dating app. I was extremely leery about that as she lived in NYC at the time. It worked out for her, she was smart about it and now they live happily in the midwest where they could afford a home.
Probably something to this. I met my husband before dating apps really took off and Facebook was nacient but I can't imagine that landscape now . I have not heard good things 😨
If couples are torn between children and “things “ and choose “things “, they made the right choice. No child should be less than things.
well it's true. some people will be bad parents. I don't think it's good for the children to be born to people who don't want them. I've heard it said that they "might" change their minds afterwards...but what if they don't?
I suspect that the necessity that most women work outside the home has been a significant contributor to the childbearing slump. Children are a full-time job in themselves and combining that with work outside the home is onerous.
I wonder if men would make more money if women didn't dilute the workforce, supply and demand.
Congratulation! This must be the "verboten" BINGO night.
Join us next Friday for THE CONVERSATION bingo night.
Interesting comments. I tend to lean towards the reason being selfishness. That, and fear. I wonder how many younger people that grew up watching Captain Planet and hear the constant drumbeat of climate doom and gloom feel it's ok to have kids. Attitudes about children have changed, too. Obama said it best, didn't he? He didn't want his girls "punished with a baby." Damn, kids are not a punishment, even when they are unplanned. I didn't plan either of my kiddos and had my youngest at 42. I think my husband would have liked more kids but pregnancy was rough on me.
The comment regarding fear of having a disabled child was disturbing to me. My youngest has Down syndrome. While not severely disabled he may not be able to be very independent as an adult. He's 9 now so I guess time will tell. Regardless of the challenges he is the light of my life. He's the kid I never knew I needed. Everyone adores him. He is funny, sweet, and one of the most empathetic kids I've ever met. I think of all those babies with DS that are aborted every year in the western world and it just sickens me. It's estimated that 70% of children diagnosed with DS in the womb are aborted in the US. It's 90%+ in European countries. Just heartbreaking.
Alex, I appreciate that you are passionate about this topic, but it stings. The reasons I didn't have children and won't have grandbabies are:
1. I met my husband too late, when I was 42 and he was 48. By that time, he did not want to have another child (he was already the father of a 13-year-old).
2. I needed a hysterectomy three years after we met, and the required fertility counseling revealed that I was infertile anyway (after all those years--now rendered a waste of money and hormonal hackery--on the pill).
So, no grandbabies for me. (The stepdaughter opted out of a relationship with me, and lives 1,500 miles away, so even if she has kids, we won't be physically close to them.) I really hope if she does have kids, they look JUST LIKE HER FATHER.
It stings.
This makes me sad, I'm sorry.
Thanks; me, too. But I can't change it, so I'm focusing on everything in life that I CAN control!
I stumbled upon the book Domestic Extremist by Peachy Keenan. While very satirical, I think it aptly describes our society, culture, and the costs of the feminist movements very well. Wish I had that book gifted to me as a young woman instead of Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. But alas, the book wasn’t written yet… There were a lot of aha! moments in it for me, as a career-driven women in an engineering field turned mom of 3.
Peachy would be pleased!
I think there are a lot of cultural issues at play. Selfishness, certainly. Laziness, self absorption. We do not value mothers, motherhood, nurturing, any of it. We put tremendous pressure on the women who do have children to raise perfect, well rounded children but we do not support them. Our culture is not child friendly and the current way of having a family is to basically stay home when your 2-3 children are young and keep a strict bedtime and then you venture out years later when they are bigger. Then you put your kids in preschool, with peers, and your social activities revolve around same age children. Instead of as it used to be, where parents friendships did not revolve around the children, so ages were often more mixed. We don’t have neighborhoods full of kids playing. Kids are much more centered than they ever have been. (We’ve largely removed boredom, and I think that was a great mistake, but that’s a different subject.) My point being - few people now grow up with any real positive experience of children and babies. I think this compartmentalization is an issue as well.
When my now baby boomer parents were young parents, their friends would come to visit. My siblings and I enjoyed the novelty of having extra people in the house and special snacks! We didn't need to be told that the guests were not there for us. Nor were we told to go away.
When visiting relatives, we sat and listened to the adults talk. It never occurred to us that we should do anything differently. At times, a baby might be around to entertain us. That baby was the most interesting thing in the room!
I think you may be onto something with people of all ages mixing regularly. Being shuffled from peer-group to peer-group exclusively can stunt growth.
Society is definitely putting baby in the corner!
Yes! Same experience. You understand exactly.
It’s so tragic that the joy and fulfillment of being a mother is being hidden from women in our society. No career can ever compare to parenting.
At 40 years old I feel so blessed with my two children and the one in my belly, and I will have more if I can!
Thank you, Alex! We are expecting first grand baby next year - I can’t wait! My fiends are so excited for me. My kids are overjoyed. I agree babies need very little outside of love. I constantly convey how wonderful parenting is! Wouldn’t trade it in for more “experiences”. As a SAHM, society always devalued my contributions. I have offered my services to help the kids - I’m lucky I have great health and stamina. I pray for many more babies in my future. And yes, my kids live in high rent cities. Fortunately, there is an abundance of childcare options before they find a neighborhood with fields and schools to settle down. And, if they plan well, they can manage on one income and enjoy Friday pizza nights at home like we did.
My first grandbaby was born a month ago and I just got home today from visiting. It's amazing, I'm happy for you! My second is due in April.
This topic has got me searching my soul a bit. I am 56, happily married for almost 30 years, childless by choice. I can’t point to a single reason why, but I’ll share a few. 1. I have older brothers who started families when I was in my early 20’s. None of those kids had a lot of discipline and frankly, visiting my family literally gave me headaches. (Thankfully my nieces and nephews survived their rearing and all turned out to be pretty great humans. I am a devoted aunt and great aunt!) 2. I went to a high powered university and definitely got the indoctrination that women can do and have it all. I never really thought that was accurate and saw many friends and coworkers struggling with their jobs and families and often their marriages as a result. 3. Probably most importantly, I never felt a maternal urge or drive. 4. I definitely drank the KoolAid that the world was overpopulated, and I did feel like I was helping the planet with my “sacrifice”. 5. My husband also did not want children, so there was no pressure there. 6. This just came to me, but I have always been a people pleaser, and my dad was always so proud of my academic and career success, and I might have felt subconsciously that I would have let him down if I “threw it all away” to be a mother. In reality, I’m sure he would have been proud of me regardless. I’m not sure if this was really a factor because I certainly didn’t please my mom - she wanted me to have children.
I don’t regret my choice but I have certainly wondered and sometimes doubted if I made the right one. Funny, you don’t meet many people who regret either choice, but I think we all probably make the best of the results of the decisions we make in this crazy life.
yes, same for me mostly. lots of rhetoric in the 70's and 80's that having kids and getting married would "ruin" a woman's life and make her "dependent upon men" -- a big no-no! It seems like the stigma of the "unwed mother" and the "teen mom" has largely gone away now as well. But back then there was a certain order to things -- get married, then have kids, and moms stayed home to raise them. It took me until my 30s to find a spouse! (I'm a huge nerd.)
Fascinating. Thank you for sharing your very well-articulated thoughts and experience.