That's kind of my point - it's very hard to know who to trust. My best attempt is to listen to as many different sources as I can and try to piece together something that makes sense.
One of my questions is to figure out what people might have to gain from pushing a particular narrative.
The problem here is that you make statements or pose questions that illustrate that you have a very tenuous grasp of history or policies that led to the current conflict and can't directly reference ANY sources but are displeased with those who are "pushing a particular narrative." Then your argument becomes - Hamas is bad but IDF is also bad. Hmm.
My argument is not "Hamas is bad but IDF is also bad."
My argument is that in our rage against Hamas - justified, from what I can see - we construct a good/bad narrative that blinds us to a more complete and much messier picture. For instance, from what you've written, you have a very firm grasp of a very narrow framing of history or policies.* I don't mean this as an attack. You've clearly thought a lot about this and know some facts very well.
I'm not advocating for one of the "sides;" I'm advocating for a conversation that isn't driven by rage. I'm afraid that in our (very human) eagerness to pick a side, we will end up supporting a war that leads to more devastation than we can imagine.
Re conflicting voices: I listen to Ben Shapiro and Glenn Greenwald, Alec Zeck and Alex Berenson. Also Whitney Webb. It's worth hearing what Dave Smith has to say because he's free of the usual Rep/Dem nonsense, and there's a recent DarkHorse podcast that's on my list. I've read rousing books on the founding of Israel and I could make an impassioned speech on the courage and tenacity of the Jews who made that happen - but I've also watched the film Israelism (which I wouldn't recommend as any kind of an unbiased documentary, but which gave me some new information). I've seen footage of IDF soldiers bragging about killing Gazan children at least some of which I assume are doctored, but that also makes me wonder about the videos of Hamas. Honestly, it kind of sucks to listen to conflicting voices. I'm much more comfortable in outrage when I'm sure I'm right.
Does that more fully answer your question? I'm not advocating for Hamas and I'm definitely not anti-Jewish. I'm just afraid that we'll let our rage lead us head-first into more conflicts and more bloodshed, and it seems clear to me that there are a small group of people in the world - those who sell weapons, the leaders of Hamas, probably some politicians in Israel - who benefit enormously from ongoing conflict and hatred.
In any case, Julia, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and time you've put into your replies.
*as just one example, you said that Israel accepted the UN partition in 1948 but the Arabs didn't. Israel's very founding displaced half a million or so Arabs, who - naturally - didn't accept what they saw as a random and unfair partition of the land.
It is unfortunate that hundreds of thousands of Arabs were displaced upon the founding of Israel, but it is also not uncommon in human history. They were assured by the Arab leaders to move out of harm's way during violence that the Jews did not initiate. At the same time, Jews were expelled from most Muslim countries where have lived for generations. Was anyone held responsible for the atrocities committed against them? I am not advocate for rage or retribution, but sometimes, unfortunately, a war has to be fought to ensure, hopefully, a longer-lasting peace.
What do you use for your reference points and news consumption? What sources do you trust?
That's kind of my point - it's very hard to know who to trust. My best attempt is to listen to as many different sources as I can and try to piece together something that makes sense.
One of my questions is to figure out what people might have to gain from pushing a particular narrative.
The problem here is that you make statements or pose questions that illustrate that you have a very tenuous grasp of history or policies that led to the current conflict and can't directly reference ANY sources but are displeased with those who are "pushing a particular narrative." Then your argument becomes - Hamas is bad but IDF is also bad. Hmm.
My argument is not "Hamas is bad but IDF is also bad."
My argument is that in our rage against Hamas - justified, from what I can see - we construct a good/bad narrative that blinds us to a more complete and much messier picture. For instance, from what you've written, you have a very firm grasp of a very narrow framing of history or policies.* I don't mean this as an attack. You've clearly thought a lot about this and know some facts very well.
I'm not advocating for one of the "sides;" I'm advocating for a conversation that isn't driven by rage. I'm afraid that in our (very human) eagerness to pick a side, we will end up supporting a war that leads to more devastation than we can imagine.
Re conflicting voices: I listen to Ben Shapiro and Glenn Greenwald, Alec Zeck and Alex Berenson. Also Whitney Webb. It's worth hearing what Dave Smith has to say because he's free of the usual Rep/Dem nonsense, and there's a recent DarkHorse podcast that's on my list. I've read rousing books on the founding of Israel and I could make an impassioned speech on the courage and tenacity of the Jews who made that happen - but I've also watched the film Israelism (which I wouldn't recommend as any kind of an unbiased documentary, but which gave me some new information). I've seen footage of IDF soldiers bragging about killing Gazan children at least some of which I assume are doctored, but that also makes me wonder about the videos of Hamas. Honestly, it kind of sucks to listen to conflicting voices. I'm much more comfortable in outrage when I'm sure I'm right.
Does that more fully answer your question? I'm not advocating for Hamas and I'm definitely not anti-Jewish. I'm just afraid that we'll let our rage lead us head-first into more conflicts and more bloodshed, and it seems clear to me that there are a small group of people in the world - those who sell weapons, the leaders of Hamas, probably some politicians in Israel - who benefit enormously from ongoing conflict and hatred.
In any case, Julia, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and time you've put into your replies.
*as just one example, you said that Israel accepted the UN partition in 1948 but the Arabs didn't. Israel's very founding displaced half a million or so Arabs, who - naturally - didn't accept what they saw as a random and unfair partition of the land.
It is unfortunate that hundreds of thousands of Arabs were displaced upon the founding of Israel, but it is also not uncommon in human history. They were assured by the Arab leaders to move out of harm's way during violence that the Jews did not initiate. At the same time, Jews were expelled from most Muslim countries where have lived for generations. Was anyone held responsible for the atrocities committed against them? I am not advocate for rage or retribution, but sometimes, unfortunately, a war has to be fought to ensure, hopefully, a longer-lasting peace.