Is that it fails to see that this sign is not merely ironic but heartbreaking.
And I suspect that - that insistence among hard-core aborrionists that the destruction of a viable human life should be celebrated, rather than viewed as anything other than a tragedy to be discouraged and avoided - is the reason the repeal of Roe v Wade may have less political impact than the woke left expects.
So in that case the doctor can induce labor or perform a c section and give that baby its best chance at survival. Tearing it limb by limb from the mother’s womb and causing incredible pain and instant death to the baby is not ever necessary or moral.
If the fetus is already dead i doubt you'll find many arguing against aborting it. The problem is like with the rape excuse, it's rare but portrayed as one of the main reasons abortion without limitation should be the law of the land
You're correct, but you're ignoring the vastly increased risk to the mother's life from inducing delivery or C-section. I'm not advocating a barbaric dismemberment while the fetus is alive, but I think a prospective mother who would otherwise want to keep her child should have the option of humane termination in this very limited circumstance. It's a medical decision, not birth control.
Please explain what you consider “humane termination”? Is there such a thing? Sounds like another pro abortion euphemism similar to the much loved pro abortion term “ women’s reproductive health” when talking about the killing of an innocent baby.
Also because most states do not require abortion clinics or hospitals to report abortion injuries it is a fallacy to say abortion is safer for the mother than live birth. We simply don’t have the data to make such a claim. See this article that explains why that is the case. Just food for thought for you.
A humane termination would mean ending the life without undue pain before performing the extraction. Perhaps some sort of drug cocktail delivered by injection.
Personally I find this is a medical situation that is best left to a medical professional and the patient. I agree we should have better data, but I'm also not in favor of forcing women to pick a poison when it comes to matters of life and death.
I would assume that "humane termination" would at least involve rendering the baby unconscious with anesthetic before the butchery began. Abortionists oppose this because it would be an admission that there was something present that could feel pain.
If our females were eating enough foods full of vitamins and minerals there would be far far fewer problems in pregnancy. Plus it would be over in 30 minutes not dragging on for 14... if only they ate right
It is a child. A human does not magically transition from fetus to child by exiting the body of the woman. No creature has any similar metamorphosis in so short a window.
How do you not... humans are born way before the end of the gestation period due to a woman's hips not being able to allow birth beyond 9 months. Other new born mammals can walk within hours or days
See comment above by Beth and below by Mrs Miau. Killing a baby in mother’s womb is totally different that a baby dying in the process of saving the mother’s life.
Nobody chose this. It is not an option unless there is no other option. Even then - explore your options. Of course the crowd who needs to hear this is not here.
No one chooses this? It's not hard to find pro abortionists speaking foundry about having an abortion and or seeking to have one. There are some very evil women within the pro abortion crowd
Wouldn't surprise me if true. The Left and especially the new Woke Authoritarian Left has always practiced "normalizing the outlier" when selling their argument be it for abortions or gun violence. That's not to say the Republican party hasn't fudged data/numbers before to try and sell something but the Left who operate on emptions do it extensively and they kind of have to today with as outlandish as their beliefs have gotten. At best %4 of the US population is gay but they need for that to appear to be more like %30 so they can get support for all the gay and trans agenda non-sense.
I can tell you that an abortion is far more invasive and dangerous than treating the placenta previa. The mother might deliver early, but it is not life-threatening. This is from personal experience with a complete placenta previa. I survived as did my baby. Don’t try fooling people into thinking this is only treated with abortion.
Some do choose to be evil. But they don't see it as evil, usually, just self interest. For any society to survive, it must define evil, identify it, and remove it. Otherwise it naturally proliferates.
Evil can’t ever be completely removed, given the nature of mankind. It’s the breakdown of societal norms, decency, expectations that it proliferates, & I feel like we’re just about “there” now. As evidenced by the Supreme Court leak itself, not to mention the hysteria & bleating & demonstrations @ justices’ homes. Did conservatives &/or Repubs EVER do that (& there have been plenty of rulings to be furious about). This hysteria is ridiculous, since ALL the ruling would do is turn the matter back to the States, where it always should’ve stayed. Even RBG said the original Roe was bad law. Anyone who wants to kill babies in the womb (or up to 28 days after in CA) will always find blue enclave safe havens to do so…sadly
Governments maintain the right to kill anyone at any time for any reason. That's the main reason we hire governments, so they can do things we don't want to. Normal societies take steps to restrain their governments, but they're not always successful. Government's role is to inhibit individual assaults on others. Society's job is to inhibit government's assaults on others. We all have violence within us. Some control those basic instincts better than others. Society is unlikely to survive when violence becomes acceptable.
The government does not maintain the right to kill anyone for any reason. They will make shit up to justify an action on their part but even the Feds today aren't brazen enough to take the approach we can kill anyone for any reason
It all depends on what you define as ‘evil’. The effect on a very young girl of a pregnancy after rape is horrendous. Why should she not be allowed a simple early abortion?
The inability, or refusal to define evil causes societies to fail. Evil is well established, throughout the world, throughout history. A fundamental evil is purposely hurting others. Killing a baby is the most heinous act. Some like to rationalize their evil by many sophistries. Abortionists rationalize it by declaring the baby is not a baby. If that makes you comfortable with killing, you likely rationalize many other crimes. Successful societies know better. The acceptance of murdering babies by half of Americans indicates our society is failing. But abortion is just a symptom of that decline. Many others besides babies won't survive the decline.
So you have outlined your religious beliefs above. I respect your right to live your life in accordance with them.
But what you do not have the right to do is to use the force of the government - that is, government imposed violence - to impose your religious beliefs on others.
According to my religious beliefs, abortion is not wrong or harmful. So in a free society, I get to live by my religious beliefs too - I should not be forced to live by yours.
Of course it's a baby. You and I and everyone else was once an embryo on the morning after. There's a bunch of ways to have sex without conceiving. Some are too stupid to think of them. Some are just irresponsible. They probably shouldn't reproduce. The morning after pill is just another way to kill your baby. Murder is often creative.
How do you not see that it even more horrendous to kill a baby! And what is equally horrendous is that child will have to live with the fact she killed her child. Believe me it will one day haunt her. She will always wonder!
There have been a couple of girls that were kidnapped and had the babies. They love them and are so happy they have them and they are great mothers. Im sure they consider their lives better for having it!
You do always have a choice. So what’s your choice. It’s 21 weeks. Your baby has a large hole in its spine. The hole is causing suction on the brain which is being pulled into the spinal canal. Her spine is also growing at a right angle. The birth will be agony for her and extremely high risk for you. When your baby is born she might live for a few hours in complete agony. You either won’t survive the birth or you will never conceive again. Here’s your choice. Make it. (We are waiting on your answer)
We can play “what if” about extremely rare circumstances. But let’s be realistic that the VAST majority of abortions are ones because the women that got pregnant didn’t want the responsibility of a child so they murdered it in the womb.
So let me get this straight.. You're stupid little scenario you put together somehow justifies killing perfectly viable babies? that's the problem , this medical condition you've described is so extraordinarily rare it doesn't even register, but everyday perfectly healthy viable babies are murdered so what's your answer to that that I didn't think you'd have much to say I know it's a woman's reproductive rights because somehow allowing a baby to live hurts the woman who gave birth to it Is that the argument you're trying to make because it's illogical and foolish
The baby would be born C-Section so both will be fine. They would administer pain medication also for both and mom, dad and family would be able to see their baby not in pain and get to hold them for as long as they want even after death because of technology to keep the baby cool. Also they have no idea what the pain level is on the child so agony is an emotional term made not accurate. But again pain medication is administered. Its a better way to say goodbye for the family. They get to have pictures taken for memory’s and take footprints and handprints. Baby gets to experience life also and see mom. This happens more then you think and moms cope better then with abortion. There are also pre-natal surgeries which could help and also the baby may be still born which would be a natural death which is better then a forced painful death being torn part by forceps and vaccine without pain medication. Still born babies can be delivered naturally and again mom gets to say goodbye again. There is no reason to kill a baby. Most medical reasons can be fixed without abortion. A baby can be delivered at 20weeks -23 weeks also with the help of medications to help develop the lungs. Many Drs are wrong many times in life expectancy or medical issues because scans even 3D can not tell everything without a hands on physical and lab work on the baby. I am assuming your a man so you have no idea what it’s like to develop a baby in your womb. Mothers need to feel and hold a baby to say goodbye because we carry that baby. When we don’t have that our mental health declines and suicide happens more after abortions or life time grief. When you can physically hold your child after death and get to bury or keep the cremation remains we move on and not live with guilt. Same thing when a family member dies without seeing them alive to say goodbye or after death to say goodbye. Also with no remains at all to bury you live with depression and it’s hard to move on with the unknowns in our life.
Who's paying for all your intensive medical procedures? Without all the insane medical interventions, the fetus would die. Asking a woman to give birth to a still born with endless medical interventions to make it possible just so the woman can say so long is really no different than aborting and letting the mother say so long at that time. Not everyone needs all the ritual you feel you need someone to go through. You are projecting your own emotions and needs upon everyone else.
That's the saddest most twisted and incomprehensible stupidest thing I think I've ever read you're a heartless rotten piece of human garbage I can only hope that you suffer the consequences of your awful words hopefully someone close to you will be taken suddenly and then you can play out your little scenario about not having to say goodbye it's just the same as someone dying from a disease or if someone you loved was murdered brutally left in a dumpster you don't get to say goodbye But you save a couple bucks right
Thank you for your kind words. So putting a woman through nine months of misery, knowing she will produce a stillborn child is worth making her dwell on it for those nine months to assuage your narrow spiritual viewpoint? Why do you think that some who are dying of terminal diseases choose suicide rather than endure another 6, 9, 12 months of suffering. In their minds they believe they are going to a better place. Would not the (dead) child also already be in a better place if we are adhering to your religious beliefs? You need to see the body to be happy? The spirit has already moved on.
This called normalizing the outlier, finding the rare and portraying it as being more common to justify ones position. Like with gun control, obsessing over every mass shooting like as if they are everyday events to justify disarming everyone except the criminals who won't follow the law because they're criminals.
In rare cases like this I believe you'll find sympathetic support.
You're talking about extraordinarily rare circumstances. In the scenario you laid out, abort the baby. Most women are having abortions because they were irresponsible and murdering their baby is an easy way out.
Self defense is a fundamental right that overrides all others. It's codified throughout the law. But the law just prohibits murder and not the infinite number of situations that would justify it. That's what we have juries for, to decide justification. Every homicide is adjudicated based on the circumstances. Your example is an extremely rare event, but doesn't justify general acceptance. Most juries, and most prosecutors would make exception for that case. Those rare cases don't justify general acceptance of homicide.
This is the horrible dilemma some parents have faced. In that situation, a choice should be available, as there is danger/pain to both mother and baby. My choice may be very different than someone else's.
I suppose you'd be shocked to learn there are many people who would actually be willing to take any of the risks you pose. Regardless, this would be considered neither a voluntary nor an illegal abortion.
In England and Wales we have over 200k abortions every year. So, do you think ALL this killing is really necessary? But still sad? IMHO, you are either crazy or lying.
The clinics also double as tissue factories delivering high volumes of butchered baby parts to colleges and government agencies like the FDA. In one experiment, the HHS was using human fetal cells to try to humanize mice, meanwhile these same cells can be found in many food products and cosmetics and are often a primary incubator for growing and culturing vaccines.
The founder of planned parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a racist eugenicist who hated black people, and the misanthropic Bill Gates likes to brag that his father was the "head of planned parenthood" while he was growing up.
Anyone who can look at any of this and think it is a sane and rational way to treat the most innocent and vulnerable among us is both spiritually bankrupt and morally dead.
So, the most innocent among us are going to bed hungry. Programs for things like school lunches are being eliminated. Maternal leave for the mothers to be with their babies is nearly non-existent. Where is your love for these innocent lives to have a decent childhood? Poverty is rampant, and you only focus on the innocent life within the womb. Shame on you.
So then shouldn't we focus on fixing the problems you mentioned instead of killing the children?
Here is how I would tackle it: the government is swamped with wall to wall waste, fraud, and abuse - as you can see from the following two videos. Clean that up, especially in the MIC, and there will be AMPLE resources to take care of any number of orphaned children while turning them into productive members of society.
Next we will need to keep the government in check, here's how: At the core, most of these problems with government are an education problem first and foremost because the citizenry has failed to do its job of oversight. To solve this, make classes on civics, critical thinking, logical fallacies, and the bias spectrum mandatory from k-12. Create an informed citizenry with a strong sense of what is at stake if they do not keep their government in check.
On the .gov side: strict term limits for all politicians and bureaucrats. No unauthorized, unrecorded, un-monitored communication between government and the businesses they regulate. No favors, no junkets, no lunches, no donations, no gifts are allowed to exchange hands between these parties or their affiliates. No one working in government can ever work for a company they regulate and vice-versa.
All of this strictly monitored by both government watchdogs and the populace themselves. As mentioned before, all of this begins and ends with education, but the problems you mentioned can be solved, Karla, and then no child needs to fear the present or the future.
Hey Tritorch, you don't need to justify your post. She's a pro-abort and they fracture any logic your can offer. They're in love with murder for convenience.
Karla, a whole lot of people simply don't agree that throwing vast sums of money into the pit called "the American government" is in any way beneficial to children, the poor, etc. There are many other ways to ensure children have decent lives and happy upbringings besides tossing more money into social programs that have had devastating outcomes. The American government just spent vast sums of money that could have helped a lot of poor families in order to give kids jabs they did not need whilst lining the pockets of drug companies. So please refrain from pretending that just because some people are against abortion, that they are therefore anti-child or anti-poor. Dishonest rhetoric helps no one and it's destroying our country.
I don't think we should be throwing huge sums of money at the Ukrainian government either, at the expense of all Americans no matter their age or if they're born yet. (That is NOT a pro-abortion statement.)
I have to have insurance for my car. My passenger doesn’t. It’s her body, she is the one with direct consequences if she chooses to have sex. So yeah, it’s her responsibility to make sure she doesn’t get pregnant. And skip the “rape and incest” argument, as the numbers are so minute as to barely be worth mentioning. Let’s be honest, the vast majority of women that have abortions do so because they acted irresponsibly and got pregnant because Of bad decisions and the refusal to accept responsibility for their actions. Prove me wrong.
To any self respecting male, the female is the ultimate decision maker if there will be a sexual liaison. If as a make I am part of an unexpected pregnancy, I would stand up and do the right thing for that child. But then bottom
Line is, to any decent male, the female makes the call on them possibility of getting pregnant. And that’s not to say that the
Male has no say in preventing an unexpected pregnancy. But to say all pregnancies start with a penis? Uh, no. They don’t.
"Male has no say in preventing an unexpected pregnancy. But to say all pregnancies start with a penis? Uh, no. They don’t. "
Glad you have loaded the responsibility on the female. So you have no voice vis a vis abortion. Zip it up dude permanently. On account of you are self-repecting and all. May all your sperm be forever barren - that would be a big help.
Self-respecting females: stay away from this mental health drama. He will put it all on you!
And bc of that, males who don’t want the responsibility of a child need to put a sock on it to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. It’s not just the woman’s responsibility. We don’t get ourselves pregnant!
There's even birth control for the day after if you mess up! I have it on good authority that some women in college pop these like Flintstone's chewables. Not sure that is actually very good for them in the long run........
Indeed, but accidents do happen, as do rapes (funny how some separate out "incest" as if incest is typically consensual). Fertilization of a woman's egg cannot then mean they are compelled to spend the next 9 months to best ensure an unwanted zygote/fetus is born healthy.
See the joke about that is if you talk to people in certain "communities" they talk about incest. "Funny uncles, mom's boyfriend." I say, well, if you aren't throwing a bas-turd in jail for every abortion committed, isn't that problem going to continue continually victimizing the young girl? THEN I'm told sometimes that person is the only employed person in the family. Whattt? Your "community" is sicker than anything I can imagine.
Get raped and pregnant by your uncle at 13 and come back to me with that idea. There goes life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Only For Men the Declaration of Independence? Who suffered you for 9 months and then decided to keep you.
I know of a 14 year old Ukrainian who was recently raped by a Russian soldier. She isn’t going to kill the baby because of a crime committed against her. There are couples who would give anything to have a child and many more who would be willing to adopt. The scars from abortion run deep and last lifelong.
Life? Every cell in your body is alive. Every sperm is alive, even the one that impregnates before it's consumed and dies. Half the cells in your body are alive and also don't share your DNA, yet they are key to human life. I doubt anybody disagrees that a zygote or fetus is alive; it's just that before they are born, their rights are not recognized as superseding the woman's rights.
Have your govenement murdered children in other nations, or was it collateral damages? If its the former, shouldn't all servicemen and politicians involved face charges of war crimes in the Hague?
Oh, I forgot, the US, Iran, Saudi, China and Russia doesn't recognise the ICC.
See, everyone can play semantics, not just you. Or we could have an adult conversation about abortion instead of being bloody clever?
The US is sending over yet another $40 billion of wealth that would be in American hands to spend on themselves and their families, but instead will be used to enrich weapons manufacturers with the clear result that more Russians and Ukrainians will be killed, including many woman, children, elderly and sickly. America is one of the best killers.
Agree and thanks for the simplification, HOWEVER there is not always a choice for young females. And not so young females. Look at Mississippi - no floor on child bride age, Maine, Massachusetts, NH too young. Seems like women are always the vessel, no matter who started it. Hate that abortion is still an option in the 21st century, but no woman should be cornered into motherhood without consent. Not just one life but 2 lives affected. One happens to be partially state-owned.....
A good home. The bureaucrats are picky. I wish you the very best to fill your family. And meanwhile - this is an awful thread for you to read. I wish you only the best Margie and Home.
It is not a baby market. You literally make it sound like that. She carries for 9 months, gets shunned, loses Amazon delivery job (an example) but she is now compartmentalized, un-employable, all her life's worth derailed. And she did not want this and took the precautions. Why should she be not who she should be because some dude told her it was fine? She is not a vessel. She has higher purposes. Do not relegate her to a brood mare please. No mercy in you.
Look at what Jeffrey Toobin did to his friends daughter he got her Pregnant as a Married man and had her have abortion. To Women are Meant for children imagine what this young girl is going through today. Mental and physical Pain. If any of you knew what they do to take a life of a baby it would Make you sick traumatized for life. Before 1973 is was illegal it's illegal as a Christian and it will always be illegal in my mind these we are all Gods children regardless of what People think. Abortion is Murder.
These people are very dark right now they are saying on live TV seeing that the economy is not doing well, and you don't think you can feed afford another child or not have an abortion. What is next you pet, or another family member must go? How could you live with yourself saying something like this on live TV? What are these people doing using Uncle Joey crack meth pipe or syringe lip balm as well? When will the dry a line when enough is enough the white house has grown men dressed up as woman in the White House today? Would you want to take a tour of this white house today with your children with all this disfunction? Uncle Joey spoke about fixing things Thursday gas went up $0.25 cents. Someone needs to call a permanent lid till 2024 in Uncle Joey.
NO! Shame on YOU! How dare you have the temerity to define what consitutes a "decent childhood". Millions grow up in poverty and are not miserable. Millions grow up in wealth and ARE miserable. You are a narrow and shallow person and border on evil to dare to declare that innocent babies are to be slaughtered because you deem them unqualified. Disgusting.
Just looking at the number of celebrities and children of celebrities that have everything one could possibly imagine having, yet die deaths of despair, proves that money isn't everything.
Part of my 30+ years doing obstetrics, it’s a hard talk. Empathy and kindness is crucial.Every single person is in a different place and different set of circumstances. We are not judge, jury or executioner.
That has to be one of the most heartwarming and heartbreaking professions.
As a matter of public policy I cannot support dehumanizing fetuses that can feel pain, and ripping them apart or sucking out their brain or burning them alive in saline. If they need to be delivered early for severe abnormalities then deliver them and let them pass in loving arms. I have seen too many perfectly healthy babies, like my spunky and completely normal now 6 year old niece diagnosed in utero with mosaic trisomy 16 and some in utero growth restrictions, who are recommended for late term abortions on the basis of incomplete information or flawed testing.
I also don’t want to live in a society more guided by ideology than policy outcomes and I try to see the world as it actually is, so I do support early abortion rights, but I find the choice heartbreaking and wish more knew of the many programs for women experiencing a crisis pregnancy. I have several friends who deeply regret their abortions and none who regret their children.
Did he say that he wasn't interested in poor kids? Smells like you're trotting out a lame justification for killing babies. It's not a zero sum game either.
And women who kill their children for any reason are emotionally crippled. For life.
How would you do that? With convincing arguments that people would adopt voluntarily, or through government force? These are ideals you suggest and presumably hold, but others do not.
I just got done reading the Grapes of Wrath, so two parent families do indeed have major issues paying bills and raising kids. That's true the world over. If you think the poor are just single parents, you do not know the poor.
I speak from experience. My girlfriend became pregnant. We got married even though I was an immigrant from Europe and really didn’t want to stay here. It was over 32 years ago. Things were different then. All the social services garbage wasn’t so readily available, and I don’t like handouts. I had to work very hard to provide. To make a long story short we had two more kids and divorced after 12 years. I retained full custody of my kids and raised them to the best of my abilities. I worked as hard as I could so we could live in a decent neighborhood with good schools. I wasn’t poor but I didn't cheat either so I never qualified for handouts. Working people are poor because government takes too much from them and after they skim from the top, our loser politicians hand the rest to freeloaders. If there are limited or no handouts for single mothers, they will consider their decisions more carefully.
And I would do it again. Perhaps that’s why I cannot understand this insistence on unlimited right to murder the truly innocent among us. How about we start accepting responsibility for our actions?
Give this current crop of authoritarians time; a better depression is coming. This country can't even produce baby formula while it hands $40 billion of our money (borrowed of course) to kill more Russians and Ukrainians, including lots of married people and children.
Funding that goes to PP alone would make a big dent in child hunger. Money going to Raytheon and other MIC welfare thieves (and for UKR, not even USA defense) could, if used lawfully and wisely, virtually end homelessness. Our goobermint long ago got bought and now is fully rogue.
Yes, government funding is our collective destruction. It should stop in all places outside of the final safety net for people who are at least trying to be as productive as they can.
You didn’t by chance vote for the people who mask toddlers, close public schools, insist on shutting down the economy for a cold impacting retired people, sexualizing 5 year olds, teaching 7 year olds with different skin colors to hate each other, giving men a “civil right” to female prisons and domestic violence shelters and to walk around naked and erect in front of minor girls in CA spas, and promoting child genital mutilation , RIGHT?????
This argument about “pro-lifers are only pro-birth” drives me nuts because it’s demonstrably false.
Wherever one lands in this issue, it’s demonstrably false to accuse those who are pro-life of “only” caring about life in the womb when those who are pro-life are in reality more likely to actually help people in need with their time and treasure, and are FAR more likely to vote for policies that put children first.
It is the pro-abortion crowd that hates and dehumanized children based on their words and their policies. It’s far more accurate to point out the pro-abortion crowd doesn’t like humans at 4 months, 4 years, or 14 years old, and their affinity for dehumanizing the smallest people extends to long after birth.
I say this even though I uncomfortably support early choice. I know life begins at conception and obviously that life is innocent and valuable. My position is based more on acknowledging reality that there will always be some women who will end a deeply unwanted pregnancy with tragic outcomes if illegal, and believing personal bodily autonomy, within reason, outweighs another’s right to life. That said, it does NOT take months to assert bodily autonomy. One’s own bodily autonomy does NOT justify torturing another human being to death - being too lazy to act very early, paying too little attention to your own body to realize your pregnant, or having too much trouble “deciding,” are not valid excuses to torture an innocent human being to death. Period. I am all for having actual debates on this subject, but I refuse to listen quietly to the very jerks still masking toddlers and promoting child genital mutilation claim its “pro-lifers” who don’t support children after birth. The pro-abortion people are the ones literally trying to destroy their lives, bodies, and development in utero or out.
First, let me compliment you on the thoughtfulness with which you replied. I appreciate the honest argument, unlike the smoke screens and canards @Karla ODell hides behind ("literally no one," when there are many, and "gun violence" instead of thugs. The left is unaware of their own cant).
That said, your position is philosophically untenable. You are basically arguing that a probability of choosing death *by* and *of* the mother (mother is the right term, btw) justifies the purposeful, intentional killing of an innocent human being (the stock definition of murder). Think about this for a sec... the very reason you oppose abortion is because violates a moral law -- the taking of an innocent human life. I am reasonably inferring you agree it is a human life [let me know if not]. But then you are arguing that in certain circumstances, a probability (freely chosen, NOT imposed on the mother), militates against keeping a moral law. This is the legacy of the Enlightenment: remove moral laws (deontological ethics = duty based, there is a fixed, binding moral law), and replace with a technocracy (teleological ethics = ends justifies the means, there really is no moral law).
Where this gets harder is when the abortion is not elective, which happens when the mom will reasonably die, say, from preeclampsia. At that point, through no fault of its own, the child is no longer innocent. But that is another topic - glad to engage in it if you like. :)
I appreciate the response, but part of my point is that I care about actual outcomes and less human suffering regardless of the ideological implications. Call it philosophical or ideological or theoretical - while those discussions are fun, too often they overlook the importance of considering real world outcomes and lead to terrible policies as a result. Note socialism and communism in practice, or even how a theory on bodily autonomy has caused people to scream in the streets because they fear losing the “right” to rip apart living human beings limb by limb.
No amount of outlawing abortion will end it, as it never has. No amount of arguing about bodily autonomy justifies women growing a human in their body for months then having it tortured to death. The philosophical extremes in practice end with more human suffering.
Life and bodily autonomy are both necessary for a free society. When they come into conflict, I’d rather have debates about balancing and limiting them against each other than be forced to completely choose between them. I absolutely recognize life begins with the process of conception, but also that there is a pretty obvious difference between and embryo and a 12 week fetus, and I do think the ability of one but not the other to feel pain matters.
I think ideological and philosophical discussions are important, but they do not outweigh actual outcomes that acknowledge the world as it actually is, where changing hearts and minds takes time and small changes result in observable outcomes, good or bad, that avoid the extremes.
1. No one is ‘pro-abortion’. Literally no one. The term you’re looking for is pro-choice. It’s an easy distinction.
2. All the talk about protecting the children and putting children first, yet no one even breathes a word about the many innocent lives lost through gun violence every year. If you’re not in favor of gun control, then the children are definitely not your primary concern.
Wrong again. Numerous members of congress and Planned Parenthood have come out very loudly saying to remove “pro-choice” from language and replace it with “pro-abortion.” They also say not to refer to it as a “choice” but rather a “decision.” There are literally millions of people in this country that loudly declare they are pro-abortion, including most prominent leftist Democrats in the US congress.
On gun control you are again wrong. While gun violence is sad, tyranny is worse. You know how China so easily enforces massive prison camps and forced late term abortions? No citizens have guns. Ever notice this country doesn’t face a risk of invasion? In no small part it’s because there would be an American with a gun behind every blade of grass. You know why cartels can’t murder kids in Mexico with ease? Citizens are banned from having guns so only criminals have them. Gun violence is sad, but mostly committed by people who already aren’t supposed to own guns, and disarming legal gun owners isn’t likely to change that but it is likely to open the door for tyrannical government.
Bumper sticker politics and assertions like the one you made about isn’t reality, it’s just silly slogans.
The more you write, Karla, the easier pro-life is to defend. Please keep it up. And, because the object of your statement is the primary focus, the correct term is pro-abortion. Why do you guys always avoid the nouns and opt for the euphemisms? And utilitarianism, the ethos that killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century alone? I bet you cannot define what a woman is, either. ;)
How could you ask a zygote or fetus what its preference is? Often, Nature takes care of terminating the little one, without anybody choosing. That's why abortion was an "everybody loses some" decision before, allowing it early on, restricting it once the fetus is viable. But apparently that's insufficient to prevent some from wanting to put another in a cage for murder because they just didn't want to carry a pregnancy to term, with all the risks, emotions and social pressure that comes with it.
So is this zygote or fetus a chicken or a fish? Is it worm or a cockroach? NO! It’s made of HUMAN chromosomes, DNA & genes. You can try to dehumanize it by calling it a zygote or a foetus but it’s still made of 100% human material.
You are incorrect either through ignorance or purposefully. Where are school lunches being eliminated? Be specific. Where is maternal leave not available? Poverty is rampant in jurisdictions run by Democrats. If we return to Constitutional governance poverty will once again wane. It is ok to focus on all life wether in the womb or not.
"If you don't favor all kinds of big spending left wing programs that actually do far more harm than good, how dare you oppose killing innocent babies?"
I made the talking point factual for the proper effect, but it's worse than that. Unless you support spending a bunch of money (and maybe going to war in a bunch of places), you can't oppose murder of any kind in any place. Yet another example of how brain dead liberals are.
Left wingers have another similar brain dead "idea" with respect to the death penalty for heinous criminals. If you oppose the murder of completely innocent and defenseless little babies, you must also oppose murderers getting the proper punishment that they have deserve. I honestly don't know how liberal "brains" even keep their automatic bodily functions going.
You ever heard of the fallacy of distraction? Neither have aborted babies. The bromide of “going to bed hungry” in a country of mass obesity, especially among those on welfare, is risible.
True, why should others have to pay for other people's children? What's the morality of forcefully taking money from one to give to another? Charity is moral. Taking care of yourself is moral. Government handouts are just receiving stolen property.
tritorck, I can see you’re a scaremonger! Colleges and government agencies aren’t using baby parts. They are utilizing zygote, embryo, and fetus, not neonate. By the way, what do you have against Satanic practices and rituals?
And how do we know that all the major religions of the world are actually the devil's work? After all, we know that such bad actors would come wearing sheep's clothing, and would try to make others into the bad person in hopes of convincing you to hate and harm them. Does God really care about you calling him a name, or is death for blasphemy the work of a devil? Does a loving creator God really kill all life on Earth except for Noah et al? Does he genocide entire cities? Does he stone to death homosexuals? Does God or a devil tell you to give all your wealth to the poor and to leave your family to spread the news?
Oh, the horrors of it all, they're making Frankenstein humanized mice. Look below and be outraged; soon, the humanized mice will consume the earth!
“Humanized mouse is a general term that refers to a mouse that has been engrafted with something from a human. This could be a short strand of human DNA, human tissue, a human tumor, a humanized immune system, or parts of the human microbiome.
You can learn an awful lot about fundamental biology and/or genetics by studying the large number and great variety of strains of mice available to scientists today. But humanized mice can be even more powerful models of the human being and thus better for research into the problems of human development and disease.”
"Fetal tissue has been used in many types of medical research, including the development of vaccines for polio, measles and other diseases, and in therapies to treat Parkinson's diseases, diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis, and to prevent the transmission of HIV."
So? There should be ZERO COMMERCIAL MARKET FOR ABORTED FETAL TISSUE. We need to hold SOME things sacred. It’s inhuman and actually evil to trade and make money from aborted fetal tissue. Why? It creates demand. So, no. It needs to stop.
Puleez. First, one needs to believe in Satan to say such nonsense. Not everyone adheres to the belief in evil spirits. Just your posting has required the burning of fossil fuels and the possibility that the resultant fumes have caused a pregnant woman to have a asthmatic attack, leaving her child mentally damaged or perhaps even caused a miscarriage. Your posts are clearly a product of Satan as you contribute to the pollution of our atmosphere. Why do you hate people so much? You must be morally dead.
I just read your linked article. NPR reported Sanger's beliefs that some people really shouldn't breed, then said she wasn't really all that bad. Kinda a silly argument. Then the article finished with a denial that she was a Nazi, which Ben Carson didn't claim, to my knowledge. Spurious argument by NPR.
tritorck, I assume you have average intelligence, so you go to the link and find out “same cells can be found in many food products and cosmetics” is simply bullshit and nothing more!
The Satanic Temple has announced that its Satanic abortion ritual exempts TST members from enduring medically unnecessary and unscientific regulations when seeking to terminate their pregnancy. The ritual involves the recitation of two of our tenets and a personal affirmation that is ceremoniously intertwined with the abortion. Because prerequisite procedures such as waiting periods, mandatory viewing of sonograms, and compulsory counseling contravene Satanists’ religious convictions, those who perform the religious abortion ritual are exempt from these requirements and can receive first-trimester abortions on demand in states that have enacted the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
Maybe ask a person leaving any Planned Parenthood for an abortion, or any woman who gets an abortion in the hospital or doctors office if they practiced satanic rituals. Reality is there for all to see if they interact with actual people.
We don't care what you think.....but we would like it if you made a point. Most of us are here on Substack to avoid assholes like you. Make a point for discussion or get the hell outta here.
Whatever happened to self-control? Abstinence? Or using any one of the many types of effective BIRTH CONTROL? Some stop ovulation and no zygote ever occurs. Seems some people use abortion as birth control. I thought Planned Parenthood provided free birth control (paid by US taxpayer, and I’m fine with that), but no taxpayer money should go toward abortions.
Why do I have to pay for everyone's birth control? I paid for my own. Even when health insurance decided to pay for men's little, blue pills I still had to pay for my own birth control.
Are you directing your rage towards the boys/men? Don't pin this on the ladies. It was never in our sphere of control, but that might change. No 10 yo should be prepared for this. It is awful.
I challenge the pro-abortion crowd with this proposition: execute the guilty rapist instead of the innocent infant. If they, like so many other kneejerk progs plead they are against the death penalty (again except for the baby) and are that squeamish about it how about life in prison for the guilty rapist?
This is why the Constitution correctly leaves this up to the states. Nearly all states will end up with rules like Europe, and the extremists at both ends will be punished by now-enabled voters and now-accountable politicians.
The entire US is going to become a third world country if we keep letting uneducated, peasants come into the country illegally. If our overlords from both parties weren't benefitting from the cheap labor and dumb, sheep mentality, they would have stopped the flow of illegals by now.
Why should Texas rely on the Feds to do what they (Texians) have every right to do? You (not we) need to shut down the illegal border with Mexico. Every state needs to start acting independently for things that are not Constitutionally authorized for Washington.
My impression of Texas was that there were a myriad of patriotic Americans of Mexican descent; however, if Gov. Abbott cannot afford to pay for enough bus fares, TX will be in serious danger.
If the Court allows each state to write its own laws, there may be a bell curve that resembles the spectrum of laws in Europe. Both US and Europe would have outliers on both sides.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
I don't think that's what RioRosie meant. I suspect she meant Planned Parenthood will purchase round trip bus tickets for pregnant women in Texas so they can travel to California (for example), have an abortion there, then return to Texas.
Gov. Gavin Gruesome in CA jumped right on this, he has plans to make California the abortion capital of the U.S. The CA government will even pay for them.
I'm a dyed in the wool Yankee, with two great-great-great grandfathers who served in the Civil War.
Yet now I'm a staunch believer in states' rights.
This decision needs to be kicked back to the states. At the very least, it takes the matter out of the Supreme Court nomination process. Maybe then we can have real jurists on the bench--instead of this collection of "affirmative action" dimwits.
Of course not. It's extremist to prosecute people who have abortions or doctors who provide them, though. Most people aren't on board for a government agency that investigates miscarriages.
As much as I sympathize with your argument, the unborn are not citizens and they don't have the same rights as citizens do. If you wish to change that, the state legislature is the proper place to make that argument. (Doing so may open up a whole new can of worms, though)
You need to watch what happens in an abortion. Then try making any sort of pro abortion on demand argument to a large group of people with that video playing on a screen behind you.
Convenience abortions are more rare than you think. The procedures are painful, and expensive. Why would women choose abortion over birth control? You men need to stop believing stuff that you simply don’t understand.
What a ridiculous comment! Do we prosecute people who commit murder after birth???!!!
Like I said in my other reply to another one of your comments above, either you can scientifically show that the baby is not a distinct human life, or you're advocating people get off scot-free with murder. See left wing hell holes where they aren't prosecuting crimes now to see how that's working out.
If you want to lock up mothers and doctors, then the state legislature is where you should make that argument. I think you'll find that most people indeed think it's extreme to prosecute doctors performing medical procedures on willing patients.
We fought an incredibly destructive war on drugs for the last five decades under the idea that we could somehow legislate morality, and the 'solution' was far worse than the problem it aimed to solve.
When you use government force you aren't convincing, you're pulling out the guns and saying 'do what I say or else'. As a libertarian I think these instances should be EXTREMELY rare. If you think abortion is included, then it's much better than this is handled by your state than by the federal government.
It’s more extreme that the penalty for rape is substantially LESS than for abortion. Men need to be factored into this, they are just as much a part of the process.
It seems extremist to me to not prevent gestation if the mothers life is threatened, or in cases of rape and/or incest. Not to mention if a child will be born into an abusive, completely inadequate situation.
Ummm, no. The founders did not anticipate babies being killed in the womb. They did make clear that all men are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, which covers any living human being. Killing babies is NOT something that any government body at any level can "legalize".
While you've left it unclear as to what you think is extreme on the pro life side (and the pro abortion side too), your Europe mention suggests you think quite a bit of baby murder is hunky dory. If you don't think life begins at conception or shortly thereafter, perhaps you could tell everyone about the "science" of babies popping into existence at birth, or in the 3rd trimester, or at some other magical point in time long after conception but when most abortions are performed. If you can't, then just admit you're fine with murdering innocents under the right circumstances.
It does, however, obliterate the idea that the founders had no idea abortion would be a thing, and that was the point. They knew about it and specifically left the federal government out of it, for good reason.
And that has what to do with protecting human life in this country right now???
Is the basic science of biology beyond your grasp completely??? Or you just know you have to avoid the science of when life begins because it means admitting that you advocate for "legalized" murder??
Bringing up a red herring, very rare instance, that isn't even on topic, does not advance any pro abortion argument.
On the subject of IVF, I'm opposed to doctors fertilizing a bunch of eggs outside the womb intending for many of them to be destroyed one way or another. In general I'm opposed to doctors playing God in any area.
That represents decades of IVF, and using multiple eggs from each woman. Sometimes dozens of eggs from one woman.
Still a red herring, still off topic, and if it wasn't clear I would regulate it such that at most, only a small number of eggs could be fertilized, with all to be used for the mother to attempt to give birth ASAP.
There are groups that see those embryos as babies:
Did you have a position on pregnant women having someone kill the babies inside them and then rip them out piece by piece? Or killing their babies by other means very early on in? Or were you just trolling?
If you leave it up to the states, the law could change with every new governor or state legislatures that disagree with the previous laws. Women can’t have their chains yanked every few years. It’s decided federally or not at all.
This is an unrealistic strawman argument--unlike at the fedrool level, where the public's voices are kept at a distance and have effectively zero influence, in most states (CA being a possible exception, due to single party control), laws don't get passed without public support and are fairly difficult to change until there is a real shift in public support. That was perhaps the greatest genius of the constitutional republic designed by USA's founders. We are supposed to have 50 (or however many) laboratories, listening to their citizens and trying what they think is best for their circumstances. That way, we in the other 49 states can, for instance, see what has worked so well in FL with respect to COVID-1984 and either change to that model, try to improve on it, or continue with a different approach until a clear winner emerges. Through it all, at the forefront is the will of the citizens, not ideological and/or corporate welfare manipulation.
Maybe. I think the gubernatorial recall election in California last fall was fraudulent. I was among what I strongly suspect was a majority of California voters who voted to recall Gavin Newsom. (This despite the fact that I was at the time a registered Democrat.) The media declared that Gavin Newsom had won what to me sounded like an impossibly large victory. I'm pretty sure the Dems stole that election and will steal as many more as they need to in order to stay in power. There were numerous credible reports of voter fraud during that recall election - all of which favored the Dems - which the mass media completely ignored.
The pre-election polls showed that Newsom might very well lose the recall election, perhaps by a significant margin. But the fascist press declared he'd won an absolutely overwhelming victory - far, far more than any of the polls had predicted.
I think mail-in ballots provide too many risk-free ways to cheat, as we've found out in WA. Luckily, the Democrats were unable to secure those rules nationally.
It's encouraging to hear about democrats taking a careful look and suspecting cheating.
Have you seen '2000 Mules' yet? Enough 100% confirmed cheating there, with just that one method of ballot fraud, with just what they were able to see on video and with cell phone location data, to change the 2020 presidential election result.
I agree with states having some sovereignty. But the EU is long established separate countries who try to come together much later, not states that began under the same federal constitution.
European states had their own constitutions before joining the EU. A few member countries had to have referendums to align with EU constitution. Ireland's constitution banned abortion so they needed a vote in order to overcome this obstacle to join the cyborg. They had to vote twice, because the first vote was a "nay". Prior to that, all Irish abortions had been exported to the UK. To answer your question - it depends upon the constitution.
The vast preponderance of people fighting for Roe v. Wade don't even understand it. They've invested it with false powers, making it a golden calf. It doesn't even protect what they seek. Furthermore, they've not even read the Alito opinion which deals not with morality, but jurisprudence, of which Roe v. Wade is a horrible example. Even Ginsberg, herself, recognized this point and argued that it would eventually need to be remedied by the court. Sadly, it appears the most vocal on the matter are also the most ignorant.
Alex, I agree with you. For decades, I have been helping women to recover from the effects of abortion (in the practice of my profession, and through volunteering within abortion recovery organizations). There are many, many women who have had their abortions believing, "You'll be fine, there is nothing to it..." and then finding out that they grieve the loss of their child, and they continue grieving, when they see their first "intended" child through the ultrasound, when they give birth to that first "intended" child, or when the miscarry later and think it is God's judgement, or when they struggle with infertility and realized they may nave aborted the only child they will ever conceive - or just, when they go home from the clinic after the abortion, realize, "I miss my baby," and then stay drunk for 3 weeks to cope with what just happened. There are a lot of women out there who continue to grieve year after year for the child they lost to abortion. Everyone said they would be fine, and they were not. So, yes, there are these hard core abortion advocates who say it's all good, and should be celebrated, and there are women, a lot of women, who miss their babies. Many of the women who miss their babies and grieve are the same women who work to pass woman-protective laws, like informed consent laws, and who help other women through pro-life pregnancy centers, to offer women resources so that they do not feel abortion is their only choice. A lot of the women who had abortions want to protect others from being pushed into an abortion they don't want, and they will not be distressed if Roe goes - some of the women who have had abortions they regret were outside the Supreme Court praying while Dobbs was being heard. And as another comment says - if Roe falls, it does go back to the states, so it doesn't mean a complete end to abortion in the US, but it will let the states decide. As it is, every time a state passes a law to protect women in regard to abortion (informed consent laws, for an example), the abortion industry sues to overturn the law, as if the abortion doctors represent the women - which they don't. The industry that profits from abortion has a financial conflict of interest.
It was a realization along these lines that made me, a former “pro-choice” advocate, change my mind on this issue. I understand, for the women you describe, it wasn’t really a “choice” at all. And I wonder about the people involved in this industry: imagine, killing fetuses (clearly, babies!) and disposing of the body parts... what does that do to THEM? It’s a sick, sick culture that promotes this atrocity.
Well, for some it is, and for some it isn't, or it's awfully mixed up. A lot of women go to the abortion clinic, not sure what they want to do, thinking they will get counseling. But an article by authors who are abortion advocates, who did research on abortion clinics, said that the vast majority of those who provide "counseling" at abortion clinics are "non-clinicians" = not health professionals, and not mental health professionals, AND 48% of the clinics in the research study said that they spent on average 10 minutes or less on any emotional assessment or emotional support. Since the "counselors" were not actual "counselors" and half the time 10 minutes or less was spent on whatever passed for counseling, it's no wonder that about a third of the women themselves in this study claimed to have received "no counseling." It did not have the appearance of counseling to many of the women who experienced it. In another study, only about 10 or 11% of the women who had abortions reported having received "adequate counseling." So, they may not be "sold on" abortion when they go to the clinic, but they may pay at the start when they fill out their papers, and they go from one room to another signing consents, talking to staff, and end up undressed on the table waiting for a doctor. They didn't know what else to do, but not they wanted that necessarily - but what COULD they do? For some, the boyfriend may tell them they need to "take care of it.," and he'll pay for the abortion, or maybe he'll pay half of it, but he doesn't want the baby, forget that. Or, dad or mom says, "You can't live at home if you have that baby." She may be 18 or 19 or 20, but if she is in college and doesn't yet have a job, or she's earning minimum wage and suddenly she's going to be homeless? Or she could be in a domestic violence situation and is being told he'll kill her if she doesn't have the abortion. Some women recognize they have bonded to the child and want the child but don't know what to do or where to get help - some think it's nothing, because others have said, "You'll be fine, it's easy..." and there are some who do think it's a good decision until they realize they wish they had not. It may be a "choice" for some but many fall into it knowing where to turn and how this could work out, and some are truly coerced or even forced - there is a spectrum. It's only the ones in distress who come to me, but it is so very many who I have known over the years - if it were one in a million, I would not know anyone in this situation because I don't know a million people - but I know many, many who wish they had their child instead of the abortion. If you know anyone who has unreolved feelings about a past abortion, there is an organization called Support After Abortion, who will give support by phone and give a referral to the type of help desired, whether faith based or NOT faith based, individual or group, weekend program vs weekly support group or one on one by skype or zoom or phone or in person. Lots of options to deal with things that may be waiting to be resolved. It's definitely not one size fits all.
I hope your friend is doing better now after having had that experience - if you know anyone who needs help, Support After Abortion at https://supportafterabortion.com is a good place to seek help - they will talk to each person to help them figure out what type of help is best fit for that person - group vs. individual, local in person vs zoom, faith based or not, and connect them to the place that is best for them to get the help they need. Or rachelsvineyard.org There is help available not only in US but many other countries, too, and most of it free. Rachel's Vineyard does a weekend retreat, so there is usually a charge for meals and lodging, but often it is subsidized to keep cost as low as possible. Most or all the organizations that partner with Support after Abortion are non-profits which provide free services, and actually, Rachel's VIneyard is a non-profit and a free service, but usually they have to charge something due to the cost of the weekend program. But it's all very accessible, and many of the people who provide the help have themselves had personal experience with abortion, so there's no judging.
I actually didn't do IVF over that very issue. It was quite a while ago and they told me whatever embryos I didn't implant became their property after 5 years. I don't know what the rules are now, but you are right that it is a moral issue too.
I do not know any women who have done that. But I think if someone who had done that and had distress associated with having done that, there are a couple of possibilities for receiving help. Rachel's Vineyard at www.rachelsvineyard.org is an after-abortion organization that has teams in almost every state, maybe every state by now. Each group is associated with one or more mental health professionals who understood the grief and stress that can be experienced relative to reproductive events of various sorts, and it is possible in that situation that a person could request an appointment / referral to the therapist and that could be helpful. The Rachel's Vineyard weekend retreat is the main thing that Rachel's Vineyard offers, and while it was especially developed for women who had abortions, and it does help wiht their recovery, it also can be helpful with related issues, for example, I know of one woman who was an IVF nurse who had been involved with "selective reduction" of some of the embryos, and she was helped by the weekend. So that would be something a person could look into if they wanted help. There is also an organization of pro-life health professionals, mainly OB/GYN's but with a mental health division - the group os AAPLOG (American Association of Pro-Life OB/GYN's) and one of the mental health professionals is starting a continuing education course to teach counselors about how to help women with various reproductive sorts of issues - she was going to do trainings in several states this summer and then there will be more professionals who are better equipped to help with these kinds of issues. But for now, I think Rachel's Vineyard may be the best possible resource if someone in the siutation you describe currently desires help with that.
Martha, I suppose it depends on who you know, because I have a different perspective from women I’ve known over 50 years (we are now in out 60s and 70s, some younger) who have terminated pregnancies.
Right, that's what I was saying - if there are women who are happy about their abortion, they don't seek mental health treatment and they don't seek abortion recovery programs. There is no way to know for sure, is it 50 - 50, or what is the breakfown, because there is so much shame that many people don't talk about it at all. I have known women in 60's and 70's and even a woman in her 80's seeking help related to a past abortion, so, it can be a very long-lasting grief. But I was saying up front, it's not everyone, and I recognize that, or at any rate, I recognize that I would only be seeing the ones who wanted help, not the ones who were happy with their decision. But it is has been so many women... and since there have been more than 60 million abortions in the US since Roe - if, say, 10% of the women experienced long-lasting distress after abortion, 6 million is a lot even if not a majority. There is some research that it would be higher than that, but if all your friends apparently did fine, you'd think there is never a problem. But shame keeps many from talking about it, keeps people from seeking help when they need it, so that I end up seeing some women are now grandmothers seeking help to finally deal with their issues. Some say it has always bothered them, but they didn't know where to find help, or they were too ashamed. But, I get that not everyone has the same experience - but just through abortion recovery organizations I have worked with, I known hundreds of women with this issue, and hundreds more in health care settings. Amd then friends and colleagues besides. There are a lot out there. who wish they could have a do-over.
"My body, my choice" was ALWAYS about exactly one issue. These people had no problem locking you up for smoking the wrong plant over the last few decades.
Really? Don’t these types tend to be anti-tobacco, pro-cannabis? And they never talk about locking up tobacco smokers. That said there are plenty of radical feminist smokers of both types. I think most people who adhere to that slogan claim a right to unlimited recreational sex as well as drugs.
Sure, politicians are like that. I was thinking about everyday “politically conscious” types not the politicians they support. But you’re right in that they won’t let a politician’s “war on drugs” policy get in the way of their support if they think the right to abortion is at stake.
From their point of view, they’re being completely consistent. They consider your unvaccinated state to be a threat to their body, so they have the right to choose whether you get to live a normal life.
Yes. But I thought they already demonstrated that the vaccinated can spread the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated, depending on severity of symptoms or something of that nature?
I discussed this in a stack post yesterday. The Democratic Party has moved from Safe, Legal, and Rare to all abortions are equally good. They’ve ceded the rational pro-choice argument to the Republicans… and it is apparently because they believe that 2/3rd not wanting to overturn Roe is an agreement with no limitation abortion rights rather than the more likely case that most people barely know what Roe decision is.
People don’t understand,that’s true. But the opposition to overturning Roe (not understanding that it doesn’t ban all abortion) is mostly attitudes like mine. Morally, I’m against abortion. But I can’t force my values and beliefs on others. So I support access up to 12 weeks, with a mandatory 48 hour waiting period and other options, like adoption, being explained to the woman first.
Progressives see the opposition as the masses supporting abortion on demand. They are misreading the room.
Well, law does just that- forces values and beliefs on others. That’s what it does. And because we allow access to anyone and everyone, people believe that abortion is normal, that it is not really ending a life, and that an embryo is expendable . We have a culture of death and our laws speak to that.
And our country is paying for that culture of death, as well. We won’t turn it around until we are doing all we can to stop it. Thank you for your comments.
Devaluing life is essential to societal takeovers. So it is our "right" to decide which lives have value? We did not protect our most vulnerable senior citizens these past two years. And suicides are becoming almost commonplace. Sadly, my own family suffered such a tragedy this past year. Now feeding babies is less important than Bill Gates' latest investment opportunity. Our government is the ONLY reason Abbott remains closed. WHY???
The impact the decision has on young girls & women is tragic. I have worked with women in their later years still trying to come to terms with it. The ones pushing for them to do it never have to suffer the consequences.
I've seen women who misscarry suffer from tremendous amounts of guilt for something that wasn't their fault. I can't imagine what a woman who murdered her own child would feel like once the gravity of her actions actually set in.
It changes them forever. Some reach a peace. Some become bitter and make further mistakes in many ways. The first way leads to a good life. The second leads to those who hate and want to punish others.
Especially since they were most likely lied to -“ It’s no big deal!”- “It’s for the best, you have your whole life to live!” - many girls and women are sold that lie. Only to find they spend their lives in shame & regret.
This is exactly correct. The idea that abortion should be celebrated exposes the left today as monsters.
The official position of the pro-choicers used to be that abortion should be safe, legal and RARE. The Democrat party used to have that in their party platform - safe, legal and rare. A few years ago, they dropped the "rare" part. That is when I opened my eyes and reconsidered my position on abortion.
If you watch an abortion, a real late term abortion, you cannot possibly think that it is anything less than an act of evil. How anyone could possibly celebrate such a thing is beyond me.
I remember Lena Dunham talking about how sad she was that she never had an abortion as that was something she considered an important experience for a woman to have. What? Nope. I'm not on that side.
I am still not a hard-liner on abortion because there are some really difficult circumstances that arise and I don't believe that a 1 day old embryo is the same as a 8 1/2 month old fetus but if I am forced to choose between abortion legal and desirable right up until 9 months VS. all abortions illegal, I'll choose all abortions illegal.
The fun part was asking them, "If it should be safe and legal...then why also rare? We want appendectomies to be safe and legal, but we don't add "rare" to them? So why "rare" for abortion?"
I don't think I ever got a straight answer to that. Mostly, it ended the conversation, because the other party had nowhere to go with it.
Yes, Hitler's mother didn't choose to abort him either. If there was some way to know whether the baby was going to be Hitler or Stalin then maybe we could make an argument for abortion. But the truth is that the baby being aborted might be Mao but he might also be George Washington or Abe Lincoln or Galileo or Aristotle.
Well, gee thanks. My mother was 40 when she had me and I’m fine. Maybe you should rethink your position. Yes, the older the mother the more likely there is genetic damage- though it is Still rare. And do you know that more babies with Down syndrome come from younger mothers ? Know why? Because many more young women get pregnant. It’s all in the numbers.
I love how Americans are all so distracted & obsessed with this fairly arbitrary and irrelevant question of aborting humans before they attain meaningful sentience, but they are totally oblivious to the literal slavery their poor and middle class are subjected to as the federal reserve prints record amounts of currency for it’s cronies.
You mean the 3 month old red herring leaked draft on the eve of the mid-term primaries that has not even been ruled upon? Let's be honest - the masses are being manipulated. But Cause Du Jour!
Strip away those who are 100 per cent in any direction and almost everyone agrees that killing viable babies is horrendous. Third term abortions are murder. Period. I can see California at 20 weeks and Texas at 10. Planned Parenthood is an abortion factory with a legacy of eugenics to rid the world of "undesirables." The list includes Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, and probably Catholics. There is a strong thread weaving through all this on the far left who want to reduce the number of people on our planet. Personal responsibility is no longer taught yet the results of Sweden in the Covid policies compared to the US shows that relying on individual decisions in that country had better results than government dictates here. So yes I am pro choice - let citizens in each state decide. In several years the noise will settle down and instead of abortion being the hidden center of approving the supremes, that approval process will be focused on past judicial decisions and perhaps even the degree to which a judge follows the constitution.
Waiting for and working things out for good to have them given to loving parents. His thoughts are far above anything we can think or ask. Satan on the other hand is searching and seeking whom he may devour
I was an unwanted child and it was hell. I'm mystified why people think they're doing a good thing to insist a child is born into circumstances that won't be 100% supportive emotionally and financially. That said, both sides should unite to promote responsible contraception as there's close to zero reason today why an unwanted child should be created in the first place. It seems both sides just need someone to fight with when the cooperative option of promoting the hell out of contraception should be obvious.
Agreed. But that would require more energy, attention, and education than our society is willing to invest. It's just easier to abort many would say. Plus then we wouldn't have this eternal conflict for politicians to exploit.
Planned Parenthood is a Butcher Factory. Why in the world would you support them ? They don’t want you to use contraception - they want the money from aborting your baby. Watch the movie Unplanned.
Is abortion really the one and only option women have in 2022 if they don’t want to be pregnant ? Really? It would seem that way if you listen to the masses in the streets. Like there is absolutely no alternative. They must be ‘sentenced’ to a pregnancy.
Nah. I took birth control pills for almost four years in the 70’s. Bet a lot of people could still get prescriptions for them today. Or implants. If you are dead set against not being pregnant (and I certainly was for quite some time) then you do what you need to do to prevent it from happening. Aborting a viable baby at even late stages of pregnancy does not HAVE to be your option
Rape? Health of the mother? Something terribly wrong with the baby? Those serious situations exist. But the staggering number
of abortions performed today are hardly the result of those dire circumstances.
To me the most frightening aspect of the entire debate is the young women being so stridently against motherhood saying "Abortion is Essential." Essential to what? I have known three women who had abortions and all three suffer from profound guilt and depression. This lack of humankindness and the nurturing spirit that goes with motherhood is unsettling for women with their love, nurturing, profound caring for their families is the essential glue that holds civilization together. Without women, us men would still be chasing wild animals and hitting each other over the heads with clubs. We need this nurturing spirit and the civilizing effect women have on our species. BUT these women that are crashing churches and screaming for the right to kill the unborn, up to the moment of birth (which is what late term abortion is), give me pause. Maybe we should have abortion so these screaming Cassandras of death don't have children. I shudder at how they would treat their children.
I believe Always Sunny touched on the topic best. Anyway, I'm still furious about the past two years of covid BS. They should legalize a 300 trimester abortion for that shit stain Fauci.
Heartbreaking- where is the advancement of science in this argument? This is not the 50s, 60s, or 70s. Technology is so advanced that we can see into the womb, science has developed so that we can know if we’re pregnant almost instantly -as well as a huge number of birth control options as well as the “morning after” pill if lack of planning is the issue. There simply is no excuse any more to wait to make a decision. AND the idea of “up to and including birth”? For God’s sake, you have carried the child until it’s born- ADOPTION should be the only option.
I agree. A the morning after pill should not be regarded as abortion. B Infanticide should be prosecuted as murder. The notion that killing a living baby should be treated as "abortion" is horrifying.
I agree “there simply is no excuse any more to wait to make a decision”
However, I would suspect that these people that are “waiting” either have irregular cycles (meaning that they have no clue that they are pregnant) or have no way of coming up with $400-$500 cash…quickly.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to your last statement “For God’s sake, you have carried the child until it’s born- ADOPTION should be the only option.” To be fair, I haven’t heard of many women doing that. It’s usually —they found out around 6 weeks and then have to try & come up with $500.
I agree, it’s just a democrat talking point (that I know of) but still should never be in the law- i don’t know about regular insurance, but Obamacare will not allow you to buy insurance that does not include abortion coverage. My daughter has epilepsy and Obamacare became her only option when she needed to leave her full time job. I was shocked to find that while we could not find a plan that covers her neurologist or seizure medications,however, everything that was an option required abortion coverage. Her insurance was/is very expensive yet all it does for her is cover a catastrophic event. Obviously as an epileptic it’s not an option to not have catastrophic coverage. But- we get to pay for abortion coverage which will never be needed.
Yeah, Roe was a bad decision. No doubt. But let me say that nobody wants to have an abortion. nobody. There are many reasons it can be advisable, even necessary. Other than stupidity, laziness, just so you know that. There are cases where a woman discovers that she is carrying a fetus without a brain or a spinal cord. Cases where a woman is carrying a dead fetus. In some states the law does not allow a birth to be induced past three months, even if the fetus is dead . In some cases a child is raped by a family member. So let's replace Roe with sane laws that account for these extreme circumstances.
There are some states that still qualify it a late term abortion if the fetus dies late in the pregnancy. I only came across this with the case of an OB who performed late term abortions in a midwestern state - only for women who were carrying a dead fetus or a fetus so damaged that it could not survive. That doctor was murdered - shot - while ushering in a church service. It was some time ago so I would have to research it to dig it up again.
As someone whose child died unexpectedly at 33 weeks into the pregnancy and thus subsequently entered a very nationwide (social media has changed things) support network of stillbirth moms I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have never, ever heard this and given that I was involved in the advocacy facet of healthcare and government policy as it relates to stillbirth I’m quite certain that if this were true I’d have known about it. I was/am literally connected to hundreds of women who’ve experienced this tragedy. So please stop with this- trying to use this type of thing (something that I and many others have experienced) to fear monger people into supporting abortion. Delivery of an already-dead baby is not an abortion and isn’t ever considered such. So just stop. It’s offensive to me and many others.
Thank you. Yes. I am very sorry for your loss. I was lucky enough to be able to have living children due to extreme medical interventions that saved them. But I will tag along on this comment to say I also am tired of hearing abortion advocates lie about high risk pregnancies, about preemies and NICU babies, and about the options available to help women with life threatening pregnancy complications. They frighten women and devalue the lives of our children, and they also devalue the courage women with complicated pregnancies show and the strength of children with disabilities. They know nothing of our experiences and refuse to listen when we speak. I am sick of it.
Yes. This exactly. So many lies. There are so many options for women in high risk pregnancies. They do EVERYTHING they can to save both mother and baby and delivering early to save mother (say in like a pre-eclampsia or placental abruption situation) is not ever considered an abortion. It would never be outlawed. I’m so sick of this. I’ve met so many women who gone through this- it isn’t an abortion, no one argues that it is, except the left throws it out there an exploits it, shouts “what if women become forced to carry a baby that will kill them because abortion has become illegal?!” Not an abortion to begin with. Not even close. And yeah that doesn’t even touch on the devaluing of children with disabilities and all life in general.
Also, I am sorry for your difficult pregnancies. It is so heart wrenching and terrifying. Mine were difficult as in after my first one died, I feared all the others would too (they didn’t - I have 3 living). I know what the terror of the daily monitoring is like, but not the experience of the extreme interventions. I’m sorry you’ve endured all this.
I am sorry for your loss, and I am not defending abortion. I wrote what I wrote because in that instance I knew it to be true. Still birth is a terrible tragedy. but that is not what I was addressing. I only say that this highly emotional issue is not black and white, and that there are cases where other options are not there. Abortion is not a new horror. In prior centuries women threw themselves down staircases. In the last century there were a bevy of similar horrors. If the court overrules Roe, it will go to the states, many of which are pro choice. Clearly there needs to be law that is more carefully considered and written that protects the fetus at least at the point of viability. And I believe that will come.
Abortion is the killing of a living human being with a beating heart, intentionally. There is no anti-abortion law that forbids inducing delivery to help a woman whose child is already deceased. Stop lying. It is appalling.
Understanding your position, I must beg your pardon as I do not lie. Not in my nature. I only spoke of one instance where I knew it to be true. The information came from the nurse in that doctor's office.
What does this have to do with a stillborn baby being considered an abortion? I tried to look it up. If it is related somehow, one effed up situation shouldn’t be used to say “some states have laws that say inducing a mom
pregnant with a stillborn baby is considered an abortion.” That is just false.
As I am not an attorney and do not have the time to research the state laws for 50 states, I cannot answer you. I repeated what was stated by the nurse in Tiller's office. Just drop this already
Had they not pushed the abortions past the first trimester and celebrated full term and partial birth(which is infanticide) maybe today would be different. In many countries the legislature past abortion laws not unelected judges. That’s how it should be.
Let’s get real people. It takes a man and a woman to get pregnant. I hear a lot of men saying they are against abortion. Men you have no right to a vote if you irresponsibly keep sticking your dicks in women’s vaginas! Keep your dicks in your pants or man up and take responsibility for your child. Until you know what it’s like to get pregnant, carry a baby and deliver it through your vagina or have it cut out by c-section, this is a women’s vote in my book!!
And as far as rape is concerned, the rapist should go to jail and have no paternity rights for putting a women in a position, where she will have no right to choose!!
Are you sure we can still define “men” and “women”?
Aside from that question, this is an issue for all women and men. We all have a stake in stopping this evil, destructive practice. Personal responsibility is the starting point for everyone. Then the outliers (rape, health risks, etc.) can be dealt with on a case by case basis in a reasonable manner.
What Senate Democrats proposed Thursday is ghoulish and far more radical than any other Western nation. Do we want to be more like the PRC or DPRK?
While I understand your point and am with you on most issues, I don’t believe most people “celebrate” abortion. It is a heart-wrenching decision for most women who consider it, and as a man, I must leave the decision on this issue to women. Women must decide on this, not men.
I don't have a dog in the abortion fight, and thankfully was never in a position to be a participant in a decision to abort a child that I was partly responsible for making. That said, I cannot imagine anyone so heartless that doing that would be a cause for anything other than the deepest of sorrows. That it's treated in this country as casually as it is, indeed actually celebrated, by government leaders, members of the press, and the artistic community, is indicative of a rot that goes far deeper than the abortion fight. I'm afraid we're witnessing real time the inevitable decline of what could have been a wonderful country. I feel sorry for the world we're leaving behind for our (unaborted) children.
Who says? Who says it’s treated casually? The media ? Ask some women - you won’t find many at all where the decision is wasn’t an agonizing final option.
The media. The women “shouting their abortion.” For some it’s agonizing. And I think others it’s a casual decision where the aftermath become unexpectedly agonizing bc they weren’t educated about the grief that would come as a result of their decision. Still some percentage (hopefully small) don’t care at all (the shout your abortion freaks). The government and media are creating a culture/society in which we do not value life.
It’s not political at all, the left is making it that way with their, as usual, fear mongering. Look, if you’re pro abortion just vote for the lunatic that agrees with you in your state. End of discussion from a political standpoint.
Maybe last year i was reading up and it seems the real argument was missed, that being when does life begin? Science says conception but like Covid the so called scientists, doctors, not to mention clergy, will twist it to fit the narrative. Alito is right, it is unconstitutional to take life. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. We have double murder for pregnant homicides, but no accountability for in the womb, now outside the womb? Wow. Yet i too am pro choice. I choose to live and let live. Abortion is anti life and pro death. Reproductive blah blah... planned parentless could give a crap about you, just bring your freakin money, er, ID. Seems like i have heard that $ theme here before. Abortion proponents seem to be women saying you can't tell me how i am going to have my sex, consequences be damned because i don't have to pay for it. Oh maybe not now, but they will pay down the road emotionally and psychologically. It is only human. And what if they have no remorse? I have no doubt anti lifers love all people too. If you agree with them. BTW, my four siblings and i are adopted.
If a baby survives an abortion, it is subsequently left to die by the mothers and doctors in several states, even though it's no longer technically a fetus
Any society, such as ours, in which a significant segment society elevates infanticide to a sacrament, is a society that can only be called degenerate.
I am pro-choice. However, the reason I am pro-choice is simply because I do not believe the government should have any say in the personal health decisions of any person. That being said, there are certain facts I cannot reconcile in my mind. First, it is not a clump of cells; it is a human being. Second, the women’s rights movement supporters, which I see myself as a member, need to recognize abortions kill girls/future women, too. Third, as I feel no one should have a say in another’s body, at it’s core abortion is a decision involving the body of another. It is definitely not an issue to be taken or talked about lightly or dismissively or grotesquely. It is a private and personal decision which should be discussed as the nuclear option and the tragedy it actually is.
Bret and Heather Weinstein had a great tangential/peripheral discussion on how upside down the views are about casual sex right now, and how women are fighting to protect attitudes that do not serve them well.
In particular, they were talking about how males seem somewhat evolutionarily programmed to seek out females that will allow sex without responsibility of raising kids, and women, conversely should be programmed to keep that at bay and only copulate with men who are likely to be responsible enough to stick around and help out. The attitudes of the day with regard to casual sex, seem to benefit men more than women. Yet women want to fight for the right to behave like the least admirable males. (Feminism seems to do that in other areas too. Rather than focusing on say, being a more compassionate alternative to males, they want to say "we can be just as ruthless as men can" )
They also don't like to address the pesky issue about the link between sex trafficking and abortion and disproportionately affects black women because they are trafficked in higher numbers per the population. There are pimps that use it for birth control. There is research available easily found if you google. But no one ever talks about THAT. And that other pesky issue - money to be made off of stem cell research. Its always about the money.
americans will always say that theirs is the best country in the world.
and they honestly mean it.
it is because they do not have a clue about the rest of the world.
they simply cannot grasp the fact that although abortion laws are far more liberal in western european countries, the number of abortions in those countries are but a fraction of the number of abortions in the usa.
making abortions illegal does not prevent abortions.
avoiding unwanted pregnancies does.
so maybe americans should come over and take a look at how things work over here.
but hey, why should they, having the best country in the world.....
"they simply cannot grasp the fact that although abortion laws are far more liberal in western european countries..."
I don't think that's true. I don't think western Europe (nor most of the rest of the world) has late-term abortions and partial-birth abortions, for example, abortion on demand. I think America is part of a group of 6 or 7 countries with the most liberal - read "abhorrent" - abortion practices. The others include Cuba, North Korea, South Korea, Vietnam, Canada, and China. Pretty much a group you don't write home about.
Unfortunately this is all very true. Abortion is at times a necessary evil, but it should never be celebrated as it is always horribly sad.
Abortion is never necessary. Even if the mother’s health is at risk doctors can induce labor and give that baby a chance at life.
That is true! With the current state of obstetrical care an abortion puts the mother at greater risk for both morbidity and mortality.
Disagree.
How?
Reported.
There are circumstances that sometimes occur in the 2nd trimester in which the pregnancy continuing will cause the mother's death through sepsis.
So in that case the doctor can induce labor or perform a c section and give that baby its best chance at survival. Tearing it limb by limb from the mother’s womb and causing incredible pain and instant death to the baby is not ever necessary or moral.
Usually the cause of sepsis necessitating an end to a pregnancy is because of fetal demise anyway. Dead fetus causing infection.
If the fetus is already dead i doubt you'll find many arguing against aborting it. The problem is like with the rape excuse, it's rare but portrayed as one of the main reasons abortion without limitation should be the law of the land
You're correct, but you're ignoring the vastly increased risk to the mother's life from inducing delivery or C-section. I'm not advocating a barbaric dismemberment while the fetus is alive, but I think a prospective mother who would otherwise want to keep her child should have the option of humane termination in this very limited circumstance. It's a medical decision, not birth control.
Please explain what you consider “humane termination”? Is there such a thing? Sounds like another pro abortion euphemism similar to the much loved pro abortion term “ women’s reproductive health” when talking about the killing of an innocent baby.
Also because most states do not require abortion clinics or hospitals to report abortion injuries it is a fallacy to say abortion is safer for the mother than live birth. We simply don’t have the data to make such a claim. See this article that explains why that is the case. Just food for thought for you.
https://nifla.org/abortion-not-safer-women-childbirth/
It's not reproductive if the outcome is zero.
A humane termination would mean ending the life without undue pain before performing the extraction. Perhaps some sort of drug cocktail delivered by injection.
Personally I find this is a medical situation that is best left to a medical professional and the patient. I agree we should have better data, but I'm also not in favor of forcing women to pick a poison when it comes to matters of life and death.
Humane termination? What did that look like?
I would assume that "humane termination" would at least involve rendering the baby unconscious with anesthetic before the butchery began. Abortionists oppose this because it would be an admission that there was something present that could feel pain.
Depends on the physical condition of the mother. She may not survive labor or surgery
Thiamin for pregnant women.
If our females were eating enough foods full of vitamins and minerals there would be far far fewer problems in pregnancy. Plus it would be over in 30 minutes not dragging on for 14... if only they ate right
How do you know? What evidence do you have that thiamin levels decrease the length of 2nd stage of delivery?
Depends on the gestational age and whether mom can tolerate labor which Carrie’s risks of its own. Say if she has a heart condition
There’s a difference between intentionally killing a child, and the natural consequences of trying to save a mother’s life.
It's not a child... it has no intellectual desire to either live or die...like plant life
Really ?
The DNA of a child is the same as the DNA of a plant?….huh???
No. But the same aspirations
No. But the same aspirat
It is a child. A human does not magically transition from fetus to child by exiting the body of the woman. No creature has any similar metamorphosis in so short a window.
how do you know that?
How do you not... humans are born way before the end of the gestation period due to a woman's hips not being able to allow birth beyond 9 months. Other new born mammals can walk within hours or days
See comment above by Beth and below by Mrs Miau. Killing a baby in mother’s womb is totally different that a baby dying in the process of saving the mother’s life.
Nobody chose this. It is not an option unless there is no other option. Even then - explore your options. Of course the crowd who needs to hear this is not here.
No one chooses this? It's not hard to find pro abortionists speaking foundry about having an abortion and or seeking to have one. There are some very evil women within the pro abortion crowd
99% of abortions are for convenience. Less than 1% is for a medical condition.
Wouldn't surprise me if true. The Left and especially the new Woke Authoritarian Left has always practiced "normalizing the outlier" when selling their argument be it for abortions or gun violence. That's not to say the Republican party hasn't fudged data/numbers before to try and sell something but the Left who operate on emptions do it extensively and they kind of have to today with as outlandish as their beliefs have gotten. At best %4 of the US population is gay but they need for that to appear to be more like %30 so they can get support for all the gay and trans agenda non-sense.
It’s all upsetting
I can tell you that an abortion is far more invasive and dangerous than treating the placenta previa. The mother might deliver early, but it is not life-threatening. This is from personal experience with a complete placenta previa. I survived as did my baby. Don’t try fooling people into thinking this is only treated with abortion.
Also can cause sterility, as happened after my sister's abortion at age 17.
Oh no. That’s really sad.
They use all types of conditions to do fool people. So disgusting.
I don't think anyone considers this a voluntary abortion. It's quite different.
Evil is never necessary.
No. You always have a choice. It’s never necessary to choose evil.
Some do choose to be evil. But they don't see it as evil, usually, just self interest. For any society to survive, it must define evil, identify it, and remove it. Otherwise it naturally proliferates.
Evil can’t ever be completely removed, given the nature of mankind. It’s the breakdown of societal norms, decency, expectations that it proliferates, & I feel like we’re just about “there” now. As evidenced by the Supreme Court leak itself, not to mention the hysteria & bleating & demonstrations @ justices’ homes. Did conservatives &/or Repubs EVER do that (& there have been plenty of rulings to be furious about). This hysteria is ridiculous, since ALL the ruling would do is turn the matter back to the States, where it always should’ve stayed. Even RBG said the original Roe was bad law. Anyone who wants to kill babies in the womb (or up to 28 days after in CA) will always find blue enclave safe havens to do so…sadly
Governments maintain the right to kill anyone at any time for any reason. That's the main reason we hire governments, so they can do things we don't want to. Normal societies take steps to restrain their governments, but they're not always successful. Government's role is to inhibit individual assaults on others. Society's job is to inhibit government's assaults on others. We all have violence within us. Some control those basic instincts better than others. Society is unlikely to survive when violence becomes acceptable.
The government does not maintain the right to kill anyone for any reason. They will make shit up to justify an action on their part but even the Feds today aren't brazen enough to take the approach we can kill anyone for any reason
Always to the extent to which it is allowed. When they can, they will. It's human nature.
It all depends on what you define as ‘evil’. The effect on a very young girl of a pregnancy after rape is horrendous. Why should she not be allowed a simple early abortion?
Rape is horrible. But why does the baby, who had nothing to do with that evil act, have to get killed?
The inability, or refusal to define evil causes societies to fail. Evil is well established, throughout the world, throughout history. A fundamental evil is purposely hurting others. Killing a baby is the most heinous act. Some like to rationalize their evil by many sophistries. Abortionists rationalize it by declaring the baby is not a baby. If that makes you comfortable with killing, you likely rationalize many other crimes. Successful societies know better. The acceptance of murdering babies by half of Americans indicates our society is failing. But abortion is just a symptom of that decline. Many others besides babies won't survive the decline.
So you have outlined your religious beliefs above. I respect your right to live your life in accordance with them.
But what you do not have the right to do is to use the force of the government - that is, government imposed violence - to impose your religious beliefs on others.
According to my religious beliefs, abortion is not wrong or harmful. So in a free society, I get to live by my religious beliefs too - I should not be forced to live by yours.
If you think abortion is wrong, don't have one.
Every sperm is sacred?
Because it is not a baby when the morning after pill is taken.
Of course it's a baby. You and I and everyone else was once an embryo on the morning after. There's a bunch of ways to have sex without conceiving. Some are too stupid to think of them. Some are just irresponsible. They probably shouldn't reproduce. The morning after pill is just another way to kill your baby. Murder is often creative.
Yes it is.
Don't be silly or blind.
How do you not see that it even more horrendous to kill a baby! And what is equally horrendous is that child will have to live with the fact she killed her child. Believe me it will one day haunt her. She will always wonder!
There have been a couple of girls that were kidnapped and had the babies. They love them and are so happy they have them and they are great mothers. Im sure they consider their lives better for having it!
You do always have a choice. So what’s your choice. It’s 21 weeks. Your baby has a large hole in its spine. The hole is causing suction on the brain which is being pulled into the spinal canal. Her spine is also growing at a right angle. The birth will be agony for her and extremely high risk for you. When your baby is born she might live for a few hours in complete agony. You either won’t survive the birth or you will never conceive again. Here’s your choice. Make it. (We are waiting on your answer)
We can play “what if” about extremely rare circumstances. But let’s be realistic that the VAST majority of abortions are ones because the women that got pregnant didn’t want the responsibility of a child so they murdered it in the womb.
Half of the abortions occurring are a second time or more with the same mother.
Of course. The only reason they come up with such high stats of abortions per X population is due to women getting multiple abortions.
Every person I know that's had an abortion has had more than 1.
So let me get this straight.. You're stupid little scenario you put together somehow justifies killing perfectly viable babies? that's the problem , this medical condition you've described is so extraordinarily rare it doesn't even register, but everyday perfectly healthy viable babies are murdered so what's your answer to that that I didn't think you'd have much to say I know it's a woman's reproductive rights because somehow allowing a baby to live hurts the woman who gave birth to it Is that the argument you're trying to make because it's illogical and foolish
The baby would be born C-Section so both will be fine. They would administer pain medication also for both and mom, dad and family would be able to see their baby not in pain and get to hold them for as long as they want even after death because of technology to keep the baby cool. Also they have no idea what the pain level is on the child so agony is an emotional term made not accurate. But again pain medication is administered. Its a better way to say goodbye for the family. They get to have pictures taken for memory’s and take footprints and handprints. Baby gets to experience life also and see mom. This happens more then you think and moms cope better then with abortion. There are also pre-natal surgeries which could help and also the baby may be still born which would be a natural death which is better then a forced painful death being torn part by forceps and vaccine without pain medication. Still born babies can be delivered naturally and again mom gets to say goodbye again. There is no reason to kill a baby. Most medical reasons can be fixed without abortion. A baby can be delivered at 20weeks -23 weeks also with the help of medications to help develop the lungs. Many Drs are wrong many times in life expectancy or medical issues because scans even 3D can not tell everything without a hands on physical and lab work on the baby. I am assuming your a man so you have no idea what it’s like to develop a baby in your womb. Mothers need to feel and hold a baby to say goodbye because we carry that baby. When we don’t have that our mental health declines and suicide happens more after abortions or life time grief. When you can physically hold your child after death and get to bury or keep the cremation remains we move on and not live with guilt. Same thing when a family member dies without seeing them alive to say goodbye or after death to say goodbye. Also with no remains at all to bury you live with depression and it’s hard to move on with the unknowns in our life.
Who's paying for all your intensive medical procedures? Without all the insane medical interventions, the fetus would die. Asking a woman to give birth to a still born with endless medical interventions to make it possible just so the woman can say so long is really no different than aborting and letting the mother say so long at that time. Not everyone needs all the ritual you feel you need someone to go through. You are projecting your own emotions and needs upon everyone else.
That's the saddest most twisted and incomprehensible stupidest thing I think I've ever read you're a heartless rotten piece of human garbage I can only hope that you suffer the consequences of your awful words hopefully someone close to you will be taken suddenly and then you can play out your little scenario about not having to say goodbye it's just the same as someone dying from a disease or if someone you loved was murdered brutally left in a dumpster you don't get to say goodbye But you save a couple bucks right
Thank you for your kind words. So putting a woman through nine months of misery, knowing she will produce a stillborn child is worth making her dwell on it for those nine months to assuage your narrow spiritual viewpoint? Why do you think that some who are dying of terminal diseases choose suicide rather than endure another 6, 9, 12 months of suffering. In their minds they believe they are going to a better place. Would not the (dead) child also already be in a better place if we are adhering to your religious beliefs? You need to see the body to be happy? The spirit has already moved on.
The better question is, who’s paying for it if we don’t make the child as comfortable as possible?
This called normalizing the outlier, finding the rare and portraying it as being more common to justify ones position. Like with gun control, obsessing over every mass shooting like as if they are everyday events to justify disarming everyone except the criminals who won't follow the law because they're criminals.
In rare cases like this I believe you'll find sympathetic support.
You're talking about extraordinarily rare circumstances. In the scenario you laid out, abort the baby. Most women are having abortions because they were irresponsible and murdering their baby is an easy way out.
Self defense is a fundamental right that overrides all others. It's codified throughout the law. But the law just prohibits murder and not the infinite number of situations that would justify it. That's what we have juries for, to decide justification. Every homicide is adjudicated based on the circumstances. Your example is an extremely rare event, but doesn't justify general acceptance. Most juries, and most prosecutors would make exception for that case. Those rare cases don't justify general acceptance of homicide.
This is the horrible dilemma some parents have faced. In that situation, a choice should be available, as there is danger/pain to both mother and baby. My choice may be very different than someone else's.
Nice job using the royal we, that made your comment extra classy!
I believe she was referring to humans with feelings and emotions.
Ms Miau Miau. Your answer please.
Arrogant much?
I suppose you'd be shocked to learn there are many people who would actually be willing to take any of the risks you pose. Regardless, this would be considered neither a voluntary nor an illegal abortion.
And Alex! it's sad you decided to pin this horrendous comment for every one to read.
OR C-section. That is the fastest way if the mother is in danger.
In England and Wales we have over 200k abortions every year. So, do you think ALL this killing is really necessary? But still sad? IMHO, you are either crazy or lying.
Abortion is a satanic practice and rituals are often performed in the clinics.
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns
The clinics also double as tissue factories delivering high volumes of butchered baby parts to colleges and government agencies like the FDA. In one experiment, the HHS was using human fetal cells to try to humanize mice, meanwhile these same cells can be found in many food products and cosmetics and are often a primary incubator for growing and culturing vaccines.
The founder of planned parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a racist eugenicist who hated black people, and the misanthropic Bill Gates likes to brag that his father was the "head of planned parenthood" while he was growing up.
Anyone who can look at any of this and think it is a sane and rational way to treat the most innocent and vulnerable among us is both spiritually bankrupt and morally dead.
Evidence: https://tritorch.com/abortionslope
So, the most innocent among us are going to bed hungry. Programs for things like school lunches are being eliminated. Maternal leave for the mothers to be with their babies is nearly non-existent. Where is your love for these innocent lives to have a decent childhood? Poverty is rampant, and you only focus on the innocent life within the womb. Shame on you.
So then shouldn't we focus on fixing the problems you mentioned instead of killing the children?
Here is how I would tackle it: the government is swamped with wall to wall waste, fraud, and abuse - as you can see from the following two videos. Clean that up, especially in the MIC, and there will be AMPLE resources to take care of any number of orphaned children while turning them into productive members of society.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Feo6xql9fvDG/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/w2Lm6uXPny9D/
Next we will need to keep the government in check, here's how: At the core, most of these problems with government are an education problem first and foremost because the citizenry has failed to do its job of oversight. To solve this, make classes on civics, critical thinking, logical fallacies, and the bias spectrum mandatory from k-12. Create an informed citizenry with a strong sense of what is at stake if they do not keep their government in check.
tritorch.com/civics [image]
On the .gov side: strict term limits for all politicians and bureaucrats. No unauthorized, unrecorded, un-monitored communication between government and the businesses they regulate. No favors, no junkets, no lunches, no donations, no gifts are allowed to exchange hands between these parties or their affiliates. No one working in government can ever work for a company they regulate and vice-versa.
All of this strictly monitored by both government watchdogs and the populace themselves. As mentioned before, all of this begins and ends with education, but the problems you mentioned can be solved, Karla, and then no child needs to fear the present or the future.
https://tritorch.com/covenant/
Hey Tritorch, you don't need to justify your post. She's a pro-abort and they fracture any logic your can offer. They're in love with murder for convenience.
Thank u for that Zade
Thanks for that Tritorch.
Excellent road map
Karla, a whole lot of people simply don't agree that throwing vast sums of money into the pit called "the American government" is in any way beneficial to children, the poor, etc. There are many other ways to ensure children have decent lives and happy upbringings besides tossing more money into social programs that have had devastating outcomes. The American government just spent vast sums of money that could have helped a lot of poor families in order to give kids jabs they did not need whilst lining the pockets of drug companies. So please refrain from pretending that just because some people are against abortion, that they are therefore anti-child or anti-poor. Dishonest rhetoric helps no one and it's destroying our country.
I don't think we should be throwing huge sums of money at the Ukrainian government either, at the expense of all Americans no matter their age or if they're born yet. (That is NOT a pro-abortion statement.)
🎯🎯🎯
Don’t have a baby if you can’t afford to raise a child. That’s what we were taught.
There are plenty birth control options available.
Or just keep your legs together.
It takes two… it isn’t just her responsibility.
I have to have insurance for my car. My passenger doesn’t. It’s her body, she is the one with direct consequences if she chooses to have sex. So yeah, it’s her responsibility to make sure she doesn’t get pregnant. And skip the “rape and incest” argument, as the numbers are so minute as to barely be worth mentioning. Let’s be honest, the vast majority of women that have abortions do so because they acted irresponsibly and got pregnant because Of bad decisions and the refusal to accept responsibility for their actions. Prove me wrong.
Prove you wrong… no man
- no pregnancy… it’s pretty simple. It’s not just about how wide her legs are open.
I suppose if a women is willing to have sex with you she’s on her own… tells us all a lot about your character.
Rosie Palms don't get preggers, mate.
Ultimately it is.
Wear a condom
All pregnancies start with a penis Zade. You can regulate that if you like
To any self respecting male, the female is the ultimate decision maker if there will be a sexual liaison. If as a make I am part of an unexpected pregnancy, I would stand up and do the right thing for that child. But then bottom
Line is, to any decent male, the female makes the call on them possibility of getting pregnant. And that’s not to say that the
Male has no say in preventing an unexpected pregnancy. But to say all pregnancies start with a penis? Uh, no. They don’t.
Then, with that logic, we will also determine if a pregnancy proceeds or not, seeing as you have determined that men are not responsible! Simple.
The core tenet of every pro-life opinion on this thread is thus:
1. Men may have sex free of any consequence
2. Women will be punished
Misogyny, and not a single thing more.
"Male has no say in preventing an unexpected pregnancy. But to say all pregnancies start with a penis? Uh, no. They don’t. "
Glad you have loaded the responsibility on the female. So you have no voice vis a vis abortion. Zip it up dude permanently. On account of you are self-repecting and all. May all your sperm be forever barren - that would be a big help.
Self-respecting females: stay away from this mental health drama. He will put it all on you!
Pregnancy doesn’t happen without one…
And bc of that, males who don’t want the responsibility of a child need to put a sock on it to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. It’s not just the woman’s responsibility. We don’t get ourselves pregnant!
Male has no say. Wish I had that free wheel life style. Do you hear yourself?
Jeez....keep it in you pants...
Amen
I was just going to write that. ;o)
What a great idea.
There's even birth control for the day after if you mess up! I have it on good authority that some women in college pop these like Flintstone's chewables. Not sure that is actually very good for them in the long run........
Yes it’s over the counter
Perhaps they should take them beforehand
Indeed, but accidents do happen, as do rapes (funny how some separate out "incest" as if incest is typically consensual). Fertilization of a woman's egg cannot then mean they are compelled to spend the next 9 months to best ensure an unwanted zygote/fetus is born healthy.
The last figures I have seen are something like .05% of abortions are because of rape.
See the joke about that is if you talk to people in certain "communities" they talk about incest. "Funny uncles, mom's boyfriend." I say, well, if you aren't throwing a bas-turd in jail for every abortion committed, isn't that problem going to continue continually victimizing the young girl? THEN I'm told sometimes that person is the only employed person in the family. Whattt? Your "community" is sicker than anything I can imagine.
Exactly.
You’re talking about >1% of instances too. THAT community doesn’t mention those statistics.
So make them carry the rapist's zygote/fetus to term, risking her life?
How many miscarriages (aka heavy flows) and stillborns happen naturally, all without anybody complaining they need to lock someone up?
What a stupid argument comparing something that happens naturally to a medical person dismembering and vacuuming out a baby.
And I’m on the fence about rape/incest even though it’s truly rare.
Love can over come
Women that can’t over come still can love that innocent person inside them and then give that life a chance with another parent
Get raped and pregnant by your uncle at 13 and come back to me with that idea. There goes life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Only For Men the Declaration of Independence? Who suffered you for 9 months and then decided to keep you.
I know of a 14 year old Ukrainian who was recently raped by a Russian soldier. She isn’t going to kill the baby because of a crime committed against her. There are couples who would give anything to have a child and many more who would be willing to adopt. The scars from abortion run deep and last lifelong.
Has a "zygote/fetus" ever been born at all?
If a miscarriage occurs, no one ever says "I lost the fetus."
True, and they never have funerals either, and they never have smiling mothers who exhale in relief.
Use what ever term you choose, life starts from conception and in humans it is the same no matter what term you use.
Life? Every cell in your body is alive. Every sperm is alive, even the one that impregnates before it's consumed and dies. Half the cells in your body are alive and also don't share your DNA, yet they are key to human life. I doubt anybody disagrees that a zygote or fetus is alive; it's just that before they are born, their rights are not recognized as superseding the woman's rights.
Have your govenement murdered children in other nations, or was it collateral damages? If its the former, shouldn't all servicemen and politicians involved face charges of war crimes in the Hague?
Oh, I forgot, the US, Iran, Saudi, China and Russia doesn't recognise the ICC.
See, everyone can play semantics, not just you. Or we could have an adult conversation about abortion instead of being bloody clever?
The US is sending over yet another $40 billion of wealth that would be in American hands to spend on themselves and their families, but instead will be used to enrich weapons manufacturers with the clear result that more Russians and Ukrainians will be killed, including many woman, children, elderly and sickly. America is one of the best killers.
Yes, when it transitions from fetus to live offspring. No baby ever born didn't start as a zygote and fetus.
Why not? It’s a child; isn’t it?
Yes sadly, there are violent rapes. But sadly, we can’t make laws based on that small percentage
Rapes happen. Incidentally. Incest is under the umbrella. Accidentally of course.
Accidents happen. You are so ill.....
Agree and thanks for the simplification, HOWEVER there is not always a choice for young females. And not so young females. Look at Mississippi - no floor on child bride age, Maine, Massachusetts, NH too young. Seems like women are always the vessel, no matter who started it. Hate that abortion is still an option in the 21st century, but no woman should be cornered into motherhood without consent. Not just one life but 2 lives affected. One happens to be partially state-owned.....
There is a five year waiting list for approved couples who want to adopt a baby. A woman does not have to raise a child that she carries.
When we applied, we were told it would be up to 12 years wait for a baby.
12 years...wow. I'm thankful for you and your family!
A good home. The bureaucrats are picky. I wish you the very best to fill your family. And meanwhile - this is an awful thread for you to read. I wish you only the best Margie and Home.
It is not a baby market. You literally make it sound like that. She carries for 9 months, gets shunned, loses Amazon delivery job (an example) but she is now compartmentalized, un-employable, all her life's worth derailed. And she did not want this and took the precautions. Why should she be not who she should be because some dude told her it was fine? She is not a vessel. She has higher purposes. Do not relegate her to a brood mare please. No mercy in you.
Shunned? Loses her job because she's pregnant? Unemployable?This is 2022 and that's hardly the case in modern society.
A 10 yr old looses her Amazon job?
Look at what Jeffrey Toobin did to his friends daughter he got her Pregnant as a Married man and had her have abortion. To Women are Meant for children imagine what this young girl is going through today. Mental and physical Pain. If any of you knew what they do to take a life of a baby it would Make you sick traumatized for life. Before 1973 is was illegal it's illegal as a Christian and it will always be illegal in my mind these we are all Gods children regardless of what People think. Abortion is Murder.
All God's children true AJB.
These people are very dark right now they are saying on live TV seeing that the economy is not doing well, and you don't think you can feed afford another child or not have an abortion. What is next you pet, or another family member must go? How could you live with yourself saying something like this on live TV? What are these people doing using Uncle Joey crack meth pipe or syringe lip balm as well? When will the dry a line when enough is enough the white house has grown men dressed up as woman in the White House today? Would you want to take a tour of this white house today with your children with all this disfunction? Uncle Joey spoke about fixing things Thursday gas went up $0.25 cents. Someone needs to call a permanent lid till 2024 in Uncle Joey.
Disgusting man.
No woman is "cornered into motherhood without consent." Leaving out the .05% of rape, incest, consent begins with sex.
Good luck with your daughters!
Thanks! I only have one daughter but she & her husband have raised 4 remarkable kids. I'm very proud of her.
Since law will rest on the states if Roe is reversed, it sounds like those states have some laws to reconsider. And parents have some teaching to do.
Agree. It might be cruel but it is written. States can change but this is not a federal issue.
Gotta love this argument. Some children are poor. Solution? Kill them.
Seriously what is wrong with you?
🎯
Scary how many upvotes your comment got. Children are not tuna!
NO! Shame on YOU! How dare you have the temerity to define what consitutes a "decent childhood". Millions grow up in poverty and are not miserable. Millions grow up in wealth and ARE miserable. You are a narrow and shallow person and border on evil to dare to declare that innocent babies are to be slaughtered because you deem them unqualified. Disgusting.
Just looking at the number of celebrities and children of celebrities that have everything one could possibly imagine having, yet die deaths of despair, proves that money isn't everything.
Hunter Biden. 😆
See Dolly Parton for a shining example of growing up very poor.
Many grow up poor. I personally didn’t know the difference.
Same here!
Go Erich!!
Part of my 30+ years doing obstetrics, it’s a hard talk. Empathy and kindness is crucial.Every single person is in a different place and different set of circumstances. We are not judge, jury or executioner.
That has to be one of the most heartwarming and heartbreaking professions.
As a matter of public policy I cannot support dehumanizing fetuses that can feel pain, and ripping them apart or sucking out their brain or burning them alive in saline. If they need to be delivered early for severe abnormalities then deliver them and let them pass in loving arms. I have seen too many perfectly healthy babies, like my spunky and completely normal now 6 year old niece diagnosed in utero with mosaic trisomy 16 and some in utero growth restrictions, who are recommended for late term abortions on the basis of incomplete information or flawed testing.
I also don’t want to live in a society more guided by ideology than policy outcomes and I try to see the world as it actually is, so I do support early abortion rights, but I find the choice heartbreaking and wish more knew of the many programs for women experiencing a crisis pregnancy. I have several friends who deeply regret their abortions and none who regret their children.
Did he say that he wasn't interested in poor kids? Smells like you're trotting out a lame justification for killing babies. It's not a zero sum game either.
And women who kill their children for any reason are emotionally crippled. For life.
1. Let's start with parents getting married instead of remaining single to siphon off benefits for single mothers.
2. How about waiting till after marriage to have kids?
3. Past isn't always bad. We can learn something from it-like two parent families have no major issues paying bills and raising their kids.
4. Let's get rid of no-fault divorce. It would encourage working harder on staying married.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
How would you do that? With convincing arguments that people would adopt voluntarily, or through government force? These are ideals you suggest and presumably hold, but others do not.
I just got done reading the Grapes of Wrath, so two parent families do indeed have major issues paying bills and raising kids. That's true the world over. If you think the poor are just single parents, you do not know the poor.
I speak from experience. My girlfriend became pregnant. We got married even though I was an immigrant from Europe and really didn’t want to stay here. It was over 32 years ago. Things were different then. All the social services garbage wasn’t so readily available, and I don’t like handouts. I had to work very hard to provide. To make a long story short we had two more kids and divorced after 12 years. I retained full custody of my kids and raised them to the best of my abilities. I worked as hard as I could so we could live in a decent neighborhood with good schools. I wasn’t poor but I didn't cheat either so I never qualified for handouts. Working people are poor because government takes too much from them and after they skim from the top, our loser politicians hand the rest to freeloaders. If there are limited or no handouts for single mothers, they will consider their decisions more carefully.
Sounds like you made enormous sacrifices and I hope you can take satisfaction in what you’ve done for others.
And I would do it again. Perhaps that’s why I cannot understand this insistence on unlimited right to murder the truly innocent among us. How about we start accepting responsibility for our actions?
Grapes of Wrath was, like, during the Great Depression.
Sure, and two parent families aren't struggling now because you said they aren't.
That was during the depression in 1930's!! It's a little different today!
Give this current crop of authoritarians time; a better depression is coming. This country can't even produce baby formula while it hands $40 billion of our money (borrowed of course) to kill more Russians and Ukrainians, including lots of married people and children.
Funding that goes to PP alone would make a big dent in child hunger. Money going to Raytheon and other MIC welfare thieves (and for UKR, not even USA defense) could, if used lawfully and wisely, virtually end homelessness. Our goobermint long ago got bought and now is fully rogue.
Yes, government funding is our collective destruction. It should stop in all places outside of the final safety net for people who are at least trying to be as productive as they can.
Right. If you don't want to feed your kid, kill it!
You didn’t by chance vote for the people who mask toddlers, close public schools, insist on shutting down the economy for a cold impacting retired people, sexualizing 5 year olds, teaching 7 year olds with different skin colors to hate each other, giving men a “civil right” to female prisons and domestic violence shelters and to walk around naked and erect in front of minor girls in CA spas, and promoting child genital mutilation , RIGHT?????
Well thought and said. The utter hypocrisy of this poster shows she was just sealioning to get a response.
This argument about “pro-lifers are only pro-birth” drives me nuts because it’s demonstrably false.
Wherever one lands in this issue, it’s demonstrably false to accuse those who are pro-life of “only” caring about life in the womb when those who are pro-life are in reality more likely to actually help people in need with their time and treasure, and are FAR more likely to vote for policies that put children first.
It is the pro-abortion crowd that hates and dehumanized children based on their words and their policies. It’s far more accurate to point out the pro-abortion crowd doesn’t like humans at 4 months, 4 years, or 14 years old, and their affinity for dehumanizing the smallest people extends to long after birth.
I say this even though I uncomfortably support early choice. I know life begins at conception and obviously that life is innocent and valuable. My position is based more on acknowledging reality that there will always be some women who will end a deeply unwanted pregnancy with tragic outcomes if illegal, and believing personal bodily autonomy, within reason, outweighs another’s right to life. That said, it does NOT take months to assert bodily autonomy. One’s own bodily autonomy does NOT justify torturing another human being to death - being too lazy to act very early, paying too little attention to your own body to realize your pregnant, or having too much trouble “deciding,” are not valid excuses to torture an innocent human being to death. Period. I am all for having actual debates on this subject, but I refuse to listen quietly to the very jerks still masking toddlers and promoting child genital mutilation claim its “pro-lifers” who don’t support children after birth. The pro-abortion people are the ones literally trying to destroy their lives, bodies, and development in utero or out.
First, let me compliment you on the thoughtfulness with which you replied. I appreciate the honest argument, unlike the smoke screens and canards @Karla ODell hides behind ("literally no one," when there are many, and "gun violence" instead of thugs. The left is unaware of their own cant).
That said, your position is philosophically untenable. You are basically arguing that a probability of choosing death *by* and *of* the mother (mother is the right term, btw) justifies the purposeful, intentional killing of an innocent human being (the stock definition of murder). Think about this for a sec... the very reason you oppose abortion is because violates a moral law -- the taking of an innocent human life. I am reasonably inferring you agree it is a human life [let me know if not]. But then you are arguing that in certain circumstances, a probability (freely chosen, NOT imposed on the mother), militates against keeping a moral law. This is the legacy of the Enlightenment: remove moral laws (deontological ethics = duty based, there is a fixed, binding moral law), and replace with a technocracy (teleological ethics = ends justifies the means, there really is no moral law).
Where this gets harder is when the abortion is not elective, which happens when the mom will reasonably die, say, from preeclampsia. At that point, through no fault of its own, the child is no longer innocent. But that is another topic - glad to engage in it if you like. :)
I appreciate the response, but part of my point is that I care about actual outcomes and less human suffering regardless of the ideological implications. Call it philosophical or ideological or theoretical - while those discussions are fun, too often they overlook the importance of considering real world outcomes and lead to terrible policies as a result. Note socialism and communism in practice, or even how a theory on bodily autonomy has caused people to scream in the streets because they fear losing the “right” to rip apart living human beings limb by limb.
No amount of outlawing abortion will end it, as it never has. No amount of arguing about bodily autonomy justifies women growing a human in their body for months then having it tortured to death. The philosophical extremes in practice end with more human suffering.
Life and bodily autonomy are both necessary for a free society. When they come into conflict, I’d rather have debates about balancing and limiting them against each other than be forced to completely choose between them. I absolutely recognize life begins with the process of conception, but also that there is a pretty obvious difference between and embryo and a 12 week fetus, and I do think the ability of one but not the other to feel pain matters.
I think ideological and philosophical discussions are important, but they do not outweigh actual outcomes that acknowledge the world as it actually is, where changing hearts and minds takes time and small changes result in observable outcomes, good or bad, that avoid the extremes.
1. No one is ‘pro-abortion’. Literally no one. The term you’re looking for is pro-choice. It’s an easy distinction.
2. All the talk about protecting the children and putting children first, yet no one even breathes a word about the many innocent lives lost through gun violence every year. If you’re not in favor of gun control, then the children are definitely not your primary concern.
Wrong again. Numerous members of congress and Planned Parenthood have come out very loudly saying to remove “pro-choice” from language and replace it with “pro-abortion.” They also say not to refer to it as a “choice” but rather a “decision.” There are literally millions of people in this country that loudly declare they are pro-abortion, including most prominent leftist Democrats in the US congress.
On gun control you are again wrong. While gun violence is sad, tyranny is worse. You know how China so easily enforces massive prison camps and forced late term abortions? No citizens have guns. Ever notice this country doesn’t face a risk of invasion? In no small part it’s because there would be an American with a gun behind every blade of grass. You know why cartels can’t murder kids in Mexico with ease? Citizens are banned from having guns so only criminals have them. Gun violence is sad, but mostly committed by people who already aren’t supposed to own guns, and disarming legal gun owners isn’t likely to change that but it is likely to open the door for tyrannical government.
Bumper sticker politics and assertions like the one you made about isn’t reality, it’s just silly slogans.
The more you write, Karla, the easier pro-life is to defend. Please keep it up. And, because the object of your statement is the primary focus, the correct term is pro-abortion. Why do you guys always avoid the nouns and opt for the euphemisms? And utilitarianism, the ethos that killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century alone? I bet you cannot define what a woman is, either. ;)
😂 I so enjoy your comments
😊
You’re just gross…🤢🤮
Also in my town they gi e away food cards, we have wic and a food pantry!
I'm gross because I don't like babies being ripped apart in the womb! You are the gross and evil one
Oh I get it, the solution is to kill the babies. Wow, you are one quality individual. How can you even look in the mirror.
So by your logic do we kill everyone who isn't having a very good life? The homeless? The chronically ill? Who decides who gets to live & who doesn't?
The libs think that they should decide.....
You decide for your life and your body. And that includes choices for living and for dying.
But does the baby get a choice? After all it is a separate human being from the mother.
How could you ask a zygote or fetus what its preference is? Often, Nature takes care of terminating the little one, without anybody choosing. That's why abortion was an "everybody loses some" decision before, allowing it early on, restricting it once the fetus is viable. But apparently that's insufficient to prevent some from wanting to put another in a cage for murder because they just didn't want to carry a pregnancy to term, with all the risks, emotions and social pressure that comes with it.
So is this zygote or fetus a chicken or a fish? Is it worm or a cockroach? NO! It’s made of HUMAN chromosomes, DNA & genes. You can try to dehumanize it by calling it a zygote or a foetus but it’s still made of 100% human material.
You are incorrect either through ignorance or purposefully. Where are school lunches being eliminated? Be specific. Where is maternal leave not available? Poverty is rampant in jurisdictions run by Democrats. If we return to Constitutional governance poverty will once again wane. It is ok to focus on all life wether in the womb or not.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, left wing talking point.
"If you don't favor all kinds of big spending left wing programs that actually do far more harm than good, how dare you oppose killing innocent babies?"
I made the talking point factual for the proper effect, but it's worse than that. Unless you support spending a bunch of money (and maybe going to war in a bunch of places), you can't oppose murder of any kind in any place. Yet another example of how brain dead liberals are.
Left wingers have another similar brain dead "idea" with respect to the death penalty for heinous criminals. If you oppose the murder of completely innocent and defenseless little babies, you must also oppose murderers getting the proper punishment that they have deserve. I honestly don't know how liberal "brains" even keep their automatic bodily functions going.
You ever heard of the fallacy of distraction? Neither have aborted babies. The bromide of “going to bed hungry” in a country of mass obesity, especially among those on welfare, is risible.
True, why should others have to pay for other people's children? What's the morality of forcefully taking money from one to give to another? Charity is moral. Taking care of yourself is moral. Government handouts are just receiving stolen property.
I like where your heads at
Especially when most women abort their first born.
Huh? Where did you come up with THAT fantasy? 🙄
tritorck, I can see you’re a scaremonger! Colleges and government agencies aren’t using baby parts. They are utilizing zygote, embryo, and fetus, not neonate. By the way, what do you have against Satanic practices and rituals?
And how do we know that all the major religions of the world are actually the devil's work? After all, we know that such bad actors would come wearing sheep's clothing, and would try to make others into the bad person in hopes of convincing you to hate and harm them. Does God really care about you calling him a name, or is death for blasphemy the work of a devil? Does a loving creator God really kill all life on Earth except for Noah et al? Does he genocide entire cities? Does he stone to death homosexuals? Does God or a devil tell you to give all your wealth to the poor and to leave your family to spread the news?
Oh, the horrors of it all, they're making Frankenstein humanized mice. Look below and be outraged; soon, the humanized mice will consume the earth!
“Humanized mouse is a general term that refers to a mouse that has been engrafted with something from a human. This could be a short strand of human DNA, human tissue, a human tumor, a humanized immune system, or parts of the human microbiome.
You can learn an awful lot about fundamental biology and/or genetics by studying the large number and great variety of strains of mice available to scientists today. But humanized mice can be even more powerful models of the human being and thus better for research into the problems of human development and disease.”
https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/jax-blog/2020/july/why-humanized-mice
How far do you need to walk down this road, Just Me, before you see where it leads? Do your soul a favor and take the time to read through this:
https://tritorch.com/DARPA
You’re trying to legitimize a clear abomination? “Oh all it is is just a mouse with grafted human DNA”. Yeah exactly. That’s an abomination.
Tell me, Philip, what’s so sacrosanct about humanoid tissue?
You’re an utterly godless person, no?
"Fetal tissue has been used in many types of medical research, including the development of vaccines for polio, measles and other diseases, and in therapies to treat Parkinson's diseases, diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis, and to prevent the transmission of HIV."
So? There should be ZERO COMMERCIAL MARKET FOR ABORTED FETAL TISSUE. We need to hold SOME things sacred. It’s inhuman and actually evil to trade and make money from aborted fetal tissue. Why? It creates demand. So, no. It needs to stop.
Tritorch… I believe the woman who runs this lives in a suburb of Detroit
Got your email, thank you for the info BB. Also, I will reply to your earlier one soon.
Puleez. First, one needs to believe in Satan to say such nonsense. Not everyone adheres to the belief in evil spirits. Just your posting has required the burning of fossil fuels and the possibility that the resultant fumes have caused a pregnant woman to have a asthmatic attack, leaving her child mentally damaged or perhaps even caused a miscarriage. Your posts are clearly a product of Satan as you contribute to the pollution of our atmosphere. Why do you hate people so much? You must be morally dead.
You don’t know very much.
tritorck, the truth shall set you free!
https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/14/432080520/fact-check-was-planned-parenthood-started-to-control-the-black-population
Don't be absurd:
https://odysee.com/@QuantumRhino:9/Planned-Parenthood-Exposed--corbettreport:e
Holy shit, I cannot believe what I just watched... Margaret Sanger and her ilk were demons!
The left would split into a thousand fragments if they ever absorbed the revelations in that video, TriTorch...
I pray that happens!
I just read your linked article. NPR reported Sanger's beliefs that some people really shouldn't breed, then said she wasn't really all that bad. Kinda a silly argument. Then the article finished with a denial that she was a Nazi, which Ben Carson didn't claim, to my knowledge. Spurious argument by NPR.
NPR / TRUTH = oxymoron
Come on man , Find reliable sources for History.
The reason you don't believe you've been conditioned and brainwashed are because you've been conditioned and brainwashed!! 🤡
Tiptriptrap, please proceed if you can find a reliable source that says otherwise.
tritorck, I assume you have average intelligence, so you go to the link and find out “same cells can be found in many food products and cosmetics” is simply bullshit and nothing more!
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/oct/23/facebook-posts/no-food-companies-are-not-selling-products-contain/
Sure, satanic rituals are performed.
You got it, it is not even a secret.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/former-satanist-i-performed-satanic-rituals-inside-abortion-clinics/
Here they are arguing that the ritual is protected by law:
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns
Check out those pizza parlor pedophile rings while you enjoy this clearly true reporting.
From the Satanic Temple Website:
-------------------
RELIGIOUS ABORTION RITUAL:
The Satanic Temple has announced that its Satanic abortion ritual exempts TST members from enduring medically unnecessary and unscientific regulations when seeking to terminate their pregnancy. The ritual involves the recitation of two of our tenets and a personal affirmation that is ceremoniously intertwined with the abortion. Because prerequisite procedures such as waiting periods, mandatory viewing of sonograms, and compulsory counseling contravene Satanists’ religious convictions, those who perform the religious abortion ritual are exempt from these requirements and can receive first-trimester abortions on demand in states that have enacted the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns
Maybe ask a person leaving any Planned Parenthood for an abortion, or any woman who gets an abortion in the hospital or doctors office if they practiced satanic rituals. Reality is there for all to see if they interact with actual people.
Here have some "After School Satan".
https://www.wbtw.com/news/state-regional-news/north-carolina-parents-concerned-about-after-school-satan-club/
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/after-school-satan
Real enough for you? This stuff is everywhere just below the surface.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Your efforts at dissemblance do not mask the emptiness of your argument.
Well, that was clear and concise argument and is beyond refutation. You clearly are in possession of the Truth.
...again....go away.....or make a point for discussion.
We don't care what you think.....but we would like it if you made a point. Most of us are here on Substack to avoid assholes like you. Make a point for discussion or get the hell outta here.
Clearly you are open to differing views, and you clearly are the good guy calling me names and telling me what I do.
Whatever happened to self-control? Abstinence? Or using any one of the many types of effective BIRTH CONTROL? Some stop ovulation and no zygote ever occurs. Seems some people use abortion as birth control. I thought Planned Parenthood provided free birth control (paid by US taxpayer, and I’m fine with that), but no taxpayer money should go toward abortions.
Why do I have to pay for everyone's birth control? I paid for my own. Even when health insurance decided to pay for men's little, blue pills I still had to pay for my own birth control.
The same reason we had to pay for college loans AND others’ if they get their way.
Are you directing your rage towards the boys/men? Don't pin this on the ladies. It was never in our sphere of control, but that might change. No 10 yo should be prepared for this. It is awful.
I challenge the pro-abortion crowd with this proposition: execute the guilty rapist instead of the innocent infant. If they, like so many other kneejerk progs plead they are against the death penalty (again except for the baby) and are that squeamish about it how about life in prison for the guilty rapist?
???
Horrific
Most vaccines and many OTC medications like ibuprofen are made with fetal cell testing. A very sad fact. It’s big business.
This is why the Constitution correctly leaves this up to the states. Nearly all states will end up with rules like Europe, and the extremists at both ends will be punished by now-enabled voters and now-accountable politicians.
Texas will not be like Europe in any way, shape or form.
Hell yeah! I'm so Texan I don't even French fries.
It better not!
I love Texas, but it will almost certainly become Mexico as the population changes.
The entire US is going to become a third world country if we keep letting uneducated, peasants come into the country illegally. If our overlords from both parties weren't benefitting from the cheap labor and dumb, sheep mentality, they would have stopped the flow of illegals by now.
Why should Texas rely on the Feds to do what they (Texians) have every right to do? You (not we) need to shut down the illegal border with Mexico. Every state needs to start acting independently for things that are not Constitutionally authorized for Washington.
States can repel invasions per Article 1, section 10, clause 3. We just need a governor who will use the power.
Didn't some court decision give Arizona guff when it tried to enforce some immigration laws?
But I agree that it could be worth Abbott's effort to ask the TX national guard to repel the invasion across the entire Rio Grande border.
Personally I think the ones that come on visas are just as big a problem, if not bigger.
Maybe folks will be able to find formula in the supermarket and Ivermectin OTC. Mexico is better run than the US now,
My impression of Texas was that there were a myriad of patriotic Americans of Mexican descent; however, if Gov. Abbott cannot afford to pay for enough bus fares, TX will be in serious danger.
Poland is in Europe
So is Hungary. But they are outliers.
If the Court allows each state to write its own laws, there may be a bell curve that resembles the spectrum of laws in Europe. Both US and Europe would have outliers on both sides.
It's not really a matter of "allowing" states to determine their own abortion laws, but rather an absence of federal power to dictate on the subject.
It's right there in the 10th Amendment!
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Not really. There is no European country that has abortion laws that are as crazy and lax as in many places in the US.
OK, there may be a bell curve for those states that are not prenatal-child-phobic and then another bunch of states that worship Moloch.
And according to our VP, Ukraine is next to Russia and may even be part of NATO. Or suntin. 😄
Her speaking is Kamala Harrisment.
Only in the most technical sense, I suppose. A lovely country and people. I hope to visit there again.
Do you know what the rules even look like in Europe?
Yes. Texas has a trigger law than bans abortion when Roe is overturned.
And then Planned Parenthood can use all its money to buy bus tickets to New York and California.
I'm sure that many Texans will understandably celebrate the exodus of New Yorkers and Californians from their republic.
I don't think that's what RioRosie meant. I suspect she meant Planned Parenthood will purchase round trip bus tickets for pregnant women in Texas so they can travel to California (for example), have an abortion there, then return to Texas.
I certainly will!
But they never leave. They stomp their feet and decry our state and its culture, but then they stay. How can we miss them if they won't go away?
Gov. Gavin Gruesome in CA jumped right on this, he has plans to make California the abortion capital of the U.S. The CA government will even pay for them.
(ALERT: Political Incorrectness Ahead)
California: The Granola State--fruits, nuts & flakes. Now, Abortion Tourism.
I do hope there aren't extra frequent flyer miles for this.
Mass exodus will only continue in CA until there are only criminals left and let Newsome have fun with that
Hopefully it's not an ongoing fleecing of taxpayer monies!
Ugh 😖🤬. I☠NY
And you think that will be the end of the discussion, do you?
Yup. In Texas at least.
I bet you any amount of money you like (going to charity) that you're wrong.
And I believe they have a rule in place that encourages citizens to turn in anyone around an abortion, even counselors, to be arrested.
I'm a dyed in the wool Yankee, with two great-great-great grandfathers who served in the Civil War.
Yet now I'm a staunch believer in states' rights.
This decision needs to be kicked back to the states. At the very least, it takes the matter out of the Supreme Court nomination process. Maybe then we can have real jurists on the bench--instead of this collection of "affirmative action" dimwits.
It’s extreme to
NOT KILL A BABY?
Of course not. It's extremist to prosecute people who have abortions or doctors who provide them, though. Most people aren't on board for a government agency that investigates miscarriages.
In Texas the doctors will be prosecuted. We are a civilized place.
What about abortions of convenience or vanity? Should those pass muster?
Legally, that's up to the states to decide.
Morally, what the government says is irrelevant.
Really? Doesn't the government have an obligation to defend the helpless and the innocent?
As much as I sympathize with your argument, the unborn are not citizens and they don't have the same rights as citizens do. If you wish to change that, the state legislature is the proper place to make that argument. (Doing so may open up a whole new can of worms, though)
You need to watch what happens in an abortion. Then try making any sort of pro abortion on demand argument to a large group of people with that video playing on a screen behind you.
Many times the woman just drinks something.
Going to outlaw that?
Convenience abortions are more rare than you think. The procedures are painful, and expensive. Why would women choose abortion over birth control? You men need to stop believing stuff that you simply don’t understand.
You men? Convenience abortions are the vast majority. I've looked at stats for state funded AB in Maryland. All of them in one year were convenience.
Truth. Abortion in this country is used as a form of birth control. It is abhorrent.
Sounds like bullshit to me.
What a ridiculous comment! Do we prosecute people who commit murder after birth???!!!
Like I said in my other reply to another one of your comments above, either you can scientifically show that the baby is not a distinct human life, or you're advocating people get off scot-free with murder. See left wing hell holes where they aren't prosecuting crimes now to see how that's working out.
If you want your state to give rights to the unborn, then the state legislature is where you do that.
Of course, if you do that you'll be prosecuting mothers who miscarry.
Good grief. Thanks for showing what passes for "logic" inside your head.
But... are they on board for a government agency that investigates “truth”. I’m sure that can woven into this discussion
Agree
Again, it’s extreme to prosecute someone that kills a baby?
If you want to lock up mothers and doctors, then the state legislature is where you should make that argument. I think you'll find that most people indeed think it's extreme to prosecute doctors performing medical procedures on willing patients.
We fought an incredibly destructive war on drugs for the last five decades under the idea that we could somehow legislate morality, and the 'solution' was far worse than the problem it aimed to solve.
When you use government force you aren't convincing, you're pulling out the guns and saying 'do what I say or else'. As a libertarian I think these instances should be EXTREMELY rare. If you think abortion is included, then it's much better than this is handled by your state than by the federal government.
It’s more extreme that the penalty for rape is substantially LESS than for abortion. Men need to be factored into this, they are just as much a part of the process.
It seems extremist to me to not prevent gestation if the mothers life is threatened, or in cases of rape and/or incest. Not to mention if a child will be born into an abusive, completely inadequate situation.
Not at all frank. Murdering babies is wrong, no exceptions.
The democratic WAY and not "my way so shut up or I will try to intimidate and destroy you"
It sure is weird that the people who shriek about 'saving democracy' are the ones who ignore the rules of our Republic.
Exactly!
Statement of the day.
Ummm, no. The founders did not anticipate babies being killed in the womb. They did make clear that all men are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, which covers any living human being. Killing babies is NOT something that any government body at any level can "legalize".
While you've left it unclear as to what you think is extreme on the pro life side (and the pro abortion side too), your Europe mention suggests you think quite a bit of baby murder is hunky dory. If you don't think life begins at conception or shortly thereafter, perhaps you could tell everyone about the "science" of babies popping into existence at birth, or in the 3rd trimester, or at some other magical point in time long after conception but when most abortions are performed. If you can't, then just admit you're fine with murdering innocents under the right circumstances.
Do you think women didn't have abortions before the founding of the USA?
Edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion
The practice of induced abortion—the deliberate termination of a pregnancy—has been known since ancient times.
That doesn't make it ok
It does, however, obliterate the idea that the founders had no idea abortion would be a thing, and that was the point. They knew about it and specifically left the federal government out of it, for good reason.
And that has what to do with protecting human life in this country right now???
Is the basic science of biology beyond your grasp completely??? Or you just know you have to avoid the science of when life begins because it means admitting that you advocate for "legalized" murder??
Bringing up a red herring, very rare instance, that isn't even on topic, does not advance any pro abortion argument.
On the subject of IVF, I'm opposed to doctors fertilizing a bunch of eggs outside the womb intending for many of them to be destroyed one way or another. In general I'm opposed to doctors playing God in any area.
That represents decades of IVF, and using multiple eggs from each woman. Sometimes dozens of eggs from one woman.
Still a red herring, still off topic, and if it wasn't clear I would regulate it such that at most, only a small number of eggs could be fertilized, with all to be used for the mother to attempt to give birth ASAP.
There are groups that see those embryos as babies:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/01/07/while-ivf-is-allowed-to-create-millions-of-frozen-embryos-those-babies-need-adoption/
Did you have a position on pregnant women having someone kill the babies inside them and then rip them out piece by piece? Or killing their babies by other means very early on in? Or were you just trolling?
If you leave it up to the states, the law could change with every new governor or state legislatures that disagree with the previous laws. Women can’t have their chains yanked every few years. It’s decided federally or not at all.
This is an unrealistic strawman argument--unlike at the fedrool level, where the public's voices are kept at a distance and have effectively zero influence, in most states (CA being a possible exception, due to single party control), laws don't get passed without public support and are fairly difficult to change until there is a real shift in public support. That was perhaps the greatest genius of the constitutional republic designed by USA's founders. We are supposed to have 50 (or however many) laboratories, listening to their citizens and trying what they think is best for their circumstances. That way, we in the other 49 states can, for instance, see what has worked so well in FL with respect to COVID-1984 and either change to that model, try to improve on it, or continue with a different approach until a clear winner emerges. Through it all, at the forefront is the will of the citizens, not ideological and/or corporate welfare manipulation.
Governors don't write laws, legislatures do.
And if they pass a law you don't like, you have a way to remove them from power. That's the way the entire Republic works.
That's the way it ideally works. Whether it does so in practice is another matter.
True, but it's much much easier to remove a state politician than a federal one.
Maybe. I think the gubernatorial recall election in California last fall was fraudulent. I was among what I strongly suspect was a majority of California voters who voted to recall Gavin Newsom. (This despite the fact that I was at the time a registered Democrat.) The media declared that Gavin Newsom had won what to me sounded like an impossibly large victory. I'm pretty sure the Dems stole that election and will steal as many more as they need to in order to stay in power. There were numerous credible reports of voter fraud during that recall election - all of which favored the Dems - which the mass media completely ignored.
The pre-election polls showed that Newsom might very well lose the recall election, perhaps by a significant margin. But the fascist press declared he'd won an absolutely overwhelming victory - far, far more than any of the polls had predicted.
I think mail-in ballots provide too many risk-free ways to cheat, as we've found out in WA. Luckily, the Democrats were unable to secure those rules nationally.
It's encouraging to hear about democrats taking a careful look and suspecting cheating.
Have you seen '2000 Mules' yet? Enough 100% confirmed cheating there, with just that one method of ballot fraud, with just what they were able to see on video and with cell phone location data, to change the 2020 presidential election result.
See: death penalty
What crime did any baby commit?
I meant states have different laws as regards the penalty for murder.
I agree with states having some sovereignty. But the EU is long established separate countries who try to come together much later, not states that began under the same federal constitution.
How long ago they were formed is irrelevant to the question "What do most people think is reasonable with regard to abortion?"
I think that answer is similar around the world: Somewhere between 12-20 weeks is acceptable, after that not so much.
Who is the world? The leaders or the people?
European states had their own constitutions before joining the EU. A few member countries had to have referendums to align with EU constitution. Ireland's constitution banned abortion so they needed a vote in order to overcome this obstacle to join the cyborg. They had to vote twice, because the first vote was a "nay". Prior to that, all Irish abortions had been exported to the UK. To answer your question - it depends upon the constitution.
I'm used to your posts being nuts, but today I'm actually worried about you. Are you getting enough sunlight?
Can't "heart" your comment .
And also the miscarriages must be prosecuted for Involuntary manslaughter
The vast preponderance of people fighting for Roe v. Wade don't even understand it. They've invested it with false powers, making it a golden calf. It doesn't even protect what they seek. Furthermore, they've not even read the Alito opinion which deals not with morality, but jurisprudence, of which Roe v. Wade is a horrible example. Even Ginsberg, herself, recognized this point and argued that it would eventually need to be remedied by the court. Sadly, it appears the most vocal on the matter are also the most ignorant.
Alex, I agree with you. For decades, I have been helping women to recover from the effects of abortion (in the practice of my profession, and through volunteering within abortion recovery organizations). There are many, many women who have had their abortions believing, "You'll be fine, there is nothing to it..." and then finding out that they grieve the loss of their child, and they continue grieving, when they see their first "intended" child through the ultrasound, when they give birth to that first "intended" child, or when the miscarry later and think it is God's judgement, or when they struggle with infertility and realized they may nave aborted the only child they will ever conceive - or just, when they go home from the clinic after the abortion, realize, "I miss my baby," and then stay drunk for 3 weeks to cope with what just happened. There are a lot of women out there who continue to grieve year after year for the child they lost to abortion. Everyone said they would be fine, and they were not. So, yes, there are these hard core abortion advocates who say it's all good, and should be celebrated, and there are women, a lot of women, who miss their babies. Many of the women who miss their babies and grieve are the same women who work to pass woman-protective laws, like informed consent laws, and who help other women through pro-life pregnancy centers, to offer women resources so that they do not feel abortion is their only choice. A lot of the women who had abortions want to protect others from being pushed into an abortion they don't want, and they will not be distressed if Roe goes - some of the women who have had abortions they regret were outside the Supreme Court praying while Dobbs was being heard. And as another comment says - if Roe falls, it does go back to the states, so it doesn't mean a complete end to abortion in the US, but it will let the states decide. As it is, every time a state passes a law to protect women in regard to abortion (informed consent laws, for an example), the abortion industry sues to overturn the law, as if the abortion doctors represent the women - which they don't. The industry that profits from abortion has a financial conflict of interest.
It was a realization along these lines that made me, a former “pro-choice” advocate, change my mind on this issue. I understand, for the women you describe, it wasn’t really a “choice” at all. And I wonder about the people involved in this industry: imagine, killing fetuses (clearly, babies!) and disposing of the body parts... what does that do to THEM? It’s a sick, sick culture that promotes this atrocity.
Well, for some it is, and for some it isn't, or it's awfully mixed up. A lot of women go to the abortion clinic, not sure what they want to do, thinking they will get counseling. But an article by authors who are abortion advocates, who did research on abortion clinics, said that the vast majority of those who provide "counseling" at abortion clinics are "non-clinicians" = not health professionals, and not mental health professionals, AND 48% of the clinics in the research study said that they spent on average 10 minutes or less on any emotional assessment or emotional support. Since the "counselors" were not actual "counselors" and half the time 10 minutes or less was spent on whatever passed for counseling, it's no wonder that about a third of the women themselves in this study claimed to have received "no counseling." It did not have the appearance of counseling to many of the women who experienced it. In another study, only about 10 or 11% of the women who had abortions reported having received "adequate counseling." So, they may not be "sold on" abortion when they go to the clinic, but they may pay at the start when they fill out their papers, and they go from one room to another signing consents, talking to staff, and end up undressed on the table waiting for a doctor. They didn't know what else to do, but not they wanted that necessarily - but what COULD they do? For some, the boyfriend may tell them they need to "take care of it.," and he'll pay for the abortion, or maybe he'll pay half of it, but he doesn't want the baby, forget that. Or, dad or mom says, "You can't live at home if you have that baby." She may be 18 or 19 or 20, but if she is in college and doesn't yet have a job, or she's earning minimum wage and suddenly she's going to be homeless? Or she could be in a domestic violence situation and is being told he'll kill her if she doesn't have the abortion. Some women recognize they have bonded to the child and want the child but don't know what to do or where to get help - some think it's nothing, because others have said, "You'll be fine, it's easy..." and there are some who do think it's a good decision until they realize they wish they had not. It may be a "choice" for some but many fall into it knowing where to turn and how this could work out, and some are truly coerced or even forced - there is a spectrum. It's only the ones in distress who come to me, but it is so very many who I have known over the years - if it were one in a million, I would not know anyone in this situation because I don't know a million people - but I know many, many who wish they had their child instead of the abortion. If you know anyone who has unreolved feelings about a past abortion, there is an organization called Support After Abortion, who will give support by phone and give a referral to the type of help desired, whether faith based or NOT faith based, individual or group, weekend program vs weekly support group or one on one by skype or zoom or phone or in person. Lots of options to deal with things that may be waiting to be resolved. It's definitely not one size fits all.
Thank you for this insight here. It’s so interesting and empathetic. I had a gf who had abortions who experienced exactly what you’re talking about.
I hope your friend is doing better now after having had that experience - if you know anyone who needs help, Support After Abortion at https://supportafterabortion.com is a good place to seek help - they will talk to each person to help them figure out what type of help is best fit for that person - group vs. individual, local in person vs zoom, faith based or not, and connect them to the place that is best for them to get the help they need. Or rachelsvineyard.org There is help available not only in US but many other countries, too, and most of it free. Rachel's Vineyard does a weekend retreat, so there is usually a charge for meals and lodging, but often it is subsidized to keep cost as low as possible. Most or all the organizations that partner with Support after Abortion are non-profits which provide free services, and actually, Rachel's VIneyard is a non-profit and a free service, but usually they have to charge something due to the cost of the weekend program. But it's all very accessible, and many of the people who provide the help have themselves had personal experience with abortion, so there's no judging.
Thank you for this and for what you do. ❤️
I actually didn't do IVF over that very issue. It was quite a while ago and they told me whatever embryos I didn't implant became their property after 5 years. I don't know what the rules are now, but you are right that it is a moral issue too.
I do not know any women who have done that. But I think if someone who had done that and had distress associated with having done that, there are a couple of possibilities for receiving help. Rachel's Vineyard at www.rachelsvineyard.org is an after-abortion organization that has teams in almost every state, maybe every state by now. Each group is associated with one or more mental health professionals who understood the grief and stress that can be experienced relative to reproductive events of various sorts, and it is possible in that situation that a person could request an appointment / referral to the therapist and that could be helpful. The Rachel's Vineyard weekend retreat is the main thing that Rachel's Vineyard offers, and while it was especially developed for women who had abortions, and it does help wiht their recovery, it also can be helpful with related issues, for example, I know of one woman who was an IVF nurse who had been involved with "selective reduction" of some of the embryos, and she was helped by the weekend. So that would be something a person could look into if they wanted help. There is also an organization of pro-life health professionals, mainly OB/GYN's but with a mental health division - the group os AAPLOG (American Association of Pro-Life OB/GYN's) and one of the mental health professionals is starting a continuing education course to teach counselors about how to help women with various reproductive sorts of issues - she was going to do trainings in several states this summer and then there will be more professionals who are better equipped to help with these kinds of issues. But for now, I think Rachel's Vineyard may be the best possible resource if someone in the siutation you describe currently desires help with that.
Martha, I suppose it depends on who you know, because I have a different perspective from women I’ve known over 50 years (we are now in out 60s and 70s, some younger) who have terminated pregnancies.
Right, that's what I was saying - if there are women who are happy about their abortion, they don't seek mental health treatment and they don't seek abortion recovery programs. There is no way to know for sure, is it 50 - 50, or what is the breakfown, because there is so much shame that many people don't talk about it at all. I have known women in 60's and 70's and even a woman in her 80's seeking help related to a past abortion, so, it can be a very long-lasting grief. But I was saying up front, it's not everyone, and I recognize that, or at any rate, I recognize that I would only be seeing the ones who wanted help, not the ones who were happy with their decision. But it is has been so many women... and since there have been more than 60 million abortions in the US since Roe - if, say, 10% of the women experienced long-lasting distress after abortion, 6 million is a lot even if not a majority. There is some research that it would be higher than that, but if all your friends apparently did fine, you'd think there is never a problem. But shame keeps many from talking about it, keeps people from seeking help when they need it, so that I end up seeing some women are now grandmothers seeking help to finally deal with their issues. Some say it has always bothered them, but they didn't know where to find help, or they were too ashamed. But, I get that not everyone has the same experience - but just through abortion recovery organizations I have worked with, I known hundreds of women with this issue, and hundreds more in health care settings. Amd then friends and colleagues besides. There are a lot out there. who wish they could have a do-over.
👍🏽
Crazy disconnect.
But it is brought to you by the same people who say the vax is safe and effective so at least they're consistent.
Not totally consistent. Don’t forget it was your body their choice when it came to the vaccine but their body their choice when it comes to abortion
Consistently inconsistent.
My favourite part is the total lack of self-awareness in the mandatory vaccine "pro-choicers."
"My body, my choice" was ALWAYS about exactly one issue. These people had no problem locking you up for smoking the wrong plant over the last few decades.
Really? Don’t these types tend to be anti-tobacco, pro-cannabis? And they never talk about locking up tobacco smokers. That said there are plenty of radical feminist smokers of both types. I think most people who adhere to that slogan claim a right to unlimited recreational sex as well as drugs.
Joe Biden wasn't. Kamala Harris wasn't. A whole lot of those 1990s drug warriors are still in office.
Sure, politicians are like that. I was thinking about everyday “politically conscious” types not the politicians they support. But you’re right in that they won’t let a politician’s “war on drugs” policy get in the way of their support if they think the right to abortion is at stake.
From their point of view, they’re being completely consistent. They consider your unvaccinated state to be a threat to their body, so they have the right to choose whether you get to live a normal life.
Yes. But I thought they already demonstrated that the vaccinated can spread the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated, depending on severity of symptoms or something of that nature?
You’re absolutely right as regards the facts. What they believe is another matter entirely.
I wrote the following in an attempt to break through to those who try to uphold the stance that discrimination against the unvaccinated is justified:
http://howtosee2020.com/discrimination/
I discussed this in a stack post yesterday. The Democratic Party has moved from Safe, Legal, and Rare to all abortions are equally good. They’ve ceded the rational pro-choice argument to the Republicans… and it is apparently because they believe that 2/3rd not wanting to overturn Roe is an agreement with no limitation abortion rights rather than the more likely case that most people barely know what Roe decision is.
People don’t understand,that’s true. But the opposition to overturning Roe (not understanding that it doesn’t ban all abortion) is mostly attitudes like mine. Morally, I’m against abortion. But I can’t force my values and beliefs on others. So I support access up to 12 weeks, with a mandatory 48 hour waiting period and other options, like adoption, being explained to the woman first.
Progressives see the opposition as the masses supporting abortion on demand. They are misreading the room.
Well, law does just that- forces values and beliefs on others. That’s what it does. And because we allow access to anyone and everyone, people believe that abortion is normal, that it is not really ending a life, and that an embryo is expendable . We have a culture of death and our laws speak to that.
And our country is paying for that culture of death, as well. We won’t turn it around until we are doing all we can to stop it. Thank you for your comments.
Minerva is an interesting name for this discussion.
Devaluing life is essential to societal takeovers. So it is our "right" to decide which lives have value? We did not protect our most vulnerable senior citizens these past two years. And suicides are becoming almost commonplace. Sadly, my own family suffered such a tragedy this past year. Now feeding babies is less important than Bill Gates' latest investment opportunity. Our government is the ONLY reason Abbott remains closed. WHY???
Agree. And why isn’t Texas ignoring the order to close? At some point in these attacks against it’s citizens, the citizens will rebel.
Astonishing, yet typical lack of self-awareness.
All of this educates Americans, and the world, about the utter hatred of the Left towards life and freedom. That is the unexpected consequences.
The impact the decision has on young girls & women is tragic. I have worked with women in their later years still trying to come to terms with it. The ones pushing for them to do it never have to suffer the consequences.
I've seen women who misscarry suffer from tremendous amounts of guilt for something that wasn't their fault. I can't imagine what a woman who murdered her own child would feel like once the gravity of her actions actually set in.
It changes them forever. Some reach a peace. Some become bitter and make further mistakes in many ways. The first way leads to a good life. The second leads to those who hate and want to punish others.
The two young woman that had abortions still are destroyed by their choices even today, Very Sad.
Especially since they were most likely lied to -“ It’s no big deal!”- “It’s for the best, you have your whole life to live!” - many girls and women are sold that lie. Only to find they spend their lives in shame & regret.
This is exactly correct. The idea that abortion should be celebrated exposes the left today as monsters.
The official position of the pro-choicers used to be that abortion should be safe, legal and RARE. The Democrat party used to have that in their party platform - safe, legal and rare. A few years ago, they dropped the "rare" part. That is when I opened my eyes and reconsidered my position on abortion.
If you watch an abortion, a real late term abortion, you cannot possibly think that it is anything less than an act of evil. How anyone could possibly celebrate such a thing is beyond me.
I remember Lena Dunham talking about how sad she was that she never had an abortion as that was something she considered an important experience for a woman to have. What? Nope. I'm not on that side.
I am still not a hard-liner on abortion because there are some really difficult circumstances that arise and I don't believe that a 1 day old embryo is the same as a 8 1/2 month old fetus but if I am forced to choose between abortion legal and desirable right up until 9 months VS. all abortions illegal, I'll choose all abortions illegal.
The fun part was asking them, "If it should be safe and legal...then why also rare? We want appendectomies to be safe and legal, but we don't add "rare" to them? So why "rare" for abortion?"
I don't think I ever got a straight answer to that. Mostly, it ended the conversation, because the other party had nowhere to go with it.
Yes, Hitler's mother didn't choose to abort him either. If there was some way to know whether the baby was going to be Hitler or Stalin then maybe we could make an argument for abortion. But the truth is that the baby being aborted might be Mao but he might also be George Washington or Abe Lincoln or Galileo or Aristotle.
Superior? And you would “allow” it? Get some humility buddy.
Thanks Linda. I had a problem with that also.
If my mother had followed your advice, I wouldn't be here. She gave birth to me 2 months before her 42nd birthday.
Well, gee thanks. My mother was 40 when she had me and I’m fine. Maybe you should rethink your position. Yes, the older the mother the more likely there is genetic damage- though it is Still rare. And do you know that more babies with Down syndrome come from younger mothers ? Know why? Because many more young women get pregnant. It’s all in the numbers.
Celebrate life! 🙏🙏🙏
I love how Americans are all so distracted & obsessed with this fairly arbitrary and irrelevant question of aborting humans before they attain meaningful sentience, but they are totally oblivious to the literal slavery their poor and middle class are subjected to as the federal reserve prints record amounts of currency for it’s cronies.
You mean the 3 month old red herring leaked draft on the eve of the mid-term primaries that has not even been ruled upon? Let's be honest - the masses are being manipulated. But Cause Du Jour!
Alex, your analysis is simple and spot on. There are just too many ghouls on that side of the debate.
The left is impervious to irony. Heartbreaking to celebrate the demise of the most vulnerable
Strip away those who are 100 per cent in any direction and almost everyone agrees that killing viable babies is horrendous. Third term abortions are murder. Period. I can see California at 20 weeks and Texas at 10. Planned Parenthood is an abortion factory with a legacy of eugenics to rid the world of "undesirables." The list includes Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, and probably Catholics. There is a strong thread weaving through all this on the far left who want to reduce the number of people on our planet. Personal responsibility is no longer taught yet the results of Sweden in the Covid policies compared to the US shows that relying on individual decisions in that country had better results than government dictates here. So yes I am pro choice - let citizens in each state decide. In several years the noise will settle down and instead of abortion being the hidden center of approving the supremes, that approval process will be focused on past judicial decisions and perhaps even the degree to which a judge follows the constitution.
I’m disappointed that the pro life side does little to nothing to promote awareness of safe surrenders laws, which exist in all 50 states.
You are absolutely spot on, Alex.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
I'm ambidextrous. Not that big a deal, actually. (I realize you're joking.)
Humor does come in handy sometimes.
I think the saddest part is all of the dead babies, not the irony . . .
Very sad, I am more than sure God has each and every one of those innocent baby children in his loving arms.
Waiting for and working things out for good to have them given to loving parents. His thoughts are far above anything we can think or ask. Satan on the other hand is searching and seeking whom he may devour
I was an unwanted child and it was hell. I'm mystified why people think they're doing a good thing to insist a child is born into circumstances that won't be 100% supportive emotionally and financially. That said, both sides should unite to promote responsible contraception as there's close to zero reason today why an unwanted child should be created in the first place. It seems both sides just need someone to fight with when the cooperative option of promoting the hell out of contraception should be obvious.
Agreed. But that would require more energy, attention, and education than our society is willing to invest. It's just easier to abort many would say. Plus then we wouldn't have this eternal conflict for politicians to exploit.
Planned Parenthood is a Butcher Factory. Why in the world would you support them ? They don’t want you to use contraception - they want the money from aborting your baby. Watch the movie Unplanned.
What is wrong with you? I understand being a troll but this is dark stuff
Is abortion really the one and only option women have in 2022 if they don’t want to be pregnant ? Really? It would seem that way if you listen to the masses in the streets. Like there is absolutely no alternative. They must be ‘sentenced’ to a pregnancy.
Nah. I took birth control pills for almost four years in the 70’s. Bet a lot of people could still get prescriptions for them today. Or implants. If you are dead set against not being pregnant (and I certainly was for quite some time) then you do what you need to do to prevent it from happening. Aborting a viable baby at even late stages of pregnancy does not HAVE to be your option
Rape? Health of the mother? Something terribly wrong with the baby? Those serious situations exist. But the staggering number
of abortions performed today are hardly the result of those dire circumstances.
To me the most frightening aspect of the entire debate is the young women being so stridently against motherhood saying "Abortion is Essential." Essential to what? I have known three women who had abortions and all three suffer from profound guilt and depression. This lack of humankindness and the nurturing spirit that goes with motherhood is unsettling for women with their love, nurturing, profound caring for their families is the essential glue that holds civilization together. Without women, us men would still be chasing wild animals and hitting each other over the heads with clubs. We need this nurturing spirit and the civilizing effect women have on our species. BUT these women that are crashing churches and screaming for the right to kill the unborn, up to the moment of birth (which is what late term abortion is), give me pause. Maybe we should have abortion so these screaming Cassandras of death don't have children. I shudder at how they would treat their children.
Don’t spend your money at that store …
I believe Always Sunny touched on the topic best. Anyway, I'm still furious about the past two years of covid BS. They should legalize a 300 trimester abortion for that shit stain Fauci.
Heartbreaking- where is the advancement of science in this argument? This is not the 50s, 60s, or 70s. Technology is so advanced that we can see into the womb, science has developed so that we can know if we’re pregnant almost instantly -as well as a huge number of birth control options as well as the “morning after” pill if lack of planning is the issue. There simply is no excuse any more to wait to make a decision. AND the idea of “up to and including birth”? For God’s sake, you have carried the child until it’s born- ADOPTION should be the only option.
I agree. A the morning after pill should not be regarded as abortion. B Infanticide should be prosecuted as murder. The notion that killing a living baby should be treated as "abortion" is horrifying.
I agree “there simply is no excuse any more to wait to make a decision”
However, I would suspect that these people that are “waiting” either have irregular cycles (meaning that they have no clue that they are pregnant) or have no way of coming up with $400-$500 cash…quickly.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to your last statement “For God’s sake, you have carried the child until it’s born- ADOPTION should be the only option.” To be fair, I haven’t heard of many women doing that. It’s usually —they found out around 6 weeks and then have to try & come up with $500.
I agree, it’s just a democrat talking point (that I know of) but still should never be in the law- i don’t know about regular insurance, but Obamacare will not allow you to buy insurance that does not include abortion coverage. My daughter has epilepsy and Obamacare became her only option when she needed to leave her full time job. I was shocked to find that while we could not find a plan that covers her neurologist or seizure medications,however, everything that was an option required abortion coverage. Her insurance was/is very expensive yet all it does for her is cover a catastrophic event. Obviously as an epileptic it’s not an option to not have catastrophic coverage. But- we get to pay for abortion coverage which will never be needed.
Maybe abortion before 12 weeks should be free and thereafter it’s $5000.
Yeah, Roe was a bad decision. No doubt. But let me say that nobody wants to have an abortion. nobody. There are many reasons it can be advisable, even necessary. Other than stupidity, laziness, just so you know that. There are cases where a woman discovers that she is carrying a fetus without a brain or a spinal cord. Cases where a woman is carrying a dead fetus. In some states the law does not allow a birth to be induced past three months, even if the fetus is dead . In some cases a child is raped by a family member. So let's replace Roe with sane laws that account for these extreme circumstances.
That is not true. please tell me where you have to carry a dead fetus. And we can talk about extremes in the voting booth after Roe is repealed.
There are some states that still qualify it a late term abortion if the fetus dies late in the pregnancy. I only came across this with the case of an OB who performed late term abortions in a midwestern state - only for women who were carrying a dead fetus or a fetus so damaged that it could not survive. That doctor was murdered - shot - while ushering in a church service. It was some time ago so I would have to research it to dig it up again.
As someone whose child died unexpectedly at 33 weeks into the pregnancy and thus subsequently entered a very nationwide (social media has changed things) support network of stillbirth moms I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have never, ever heard this and given that I was involved in the advocacy facet of healthcare and government policy as it relates to stillbirth I’m quite certain that if this were true I’d have known about it. I was/am literally connected to hundreds of women who’ve experienced this tragedy. So please stop with this- trying to use this type of thing (something that I and many others have experienced) to fear monger people into supporting abortion. Delivery of an already-dead baby is not an abortion and isn’t ever considered such. So just stop. It’s offensive to me and many others.
Thank you. Yes. I am very sorry for your loss. I was lucky enough to be able to have living children due to extreme medical interventions that saved them. But I will tag along on this comment to say I also am tired of hearing abortion advocates lie about high risk pregnancies, about preemies and NICU babies, and about the options available to help women with life threatening pregnancy complications. They frighten women and devalue the lives of our children, and they also devalue the courage women with complicated pregnancies show and the strength of children with disabilities. They know nothing of our experiences and refuse to listen when we speak. I am sick of it.
Yes. This exactly. So many lies. There are so many options for women in high risk pregnancies. They do EVERYTHING they can to save both mother and baby and delivering early to save mother (say in like a pre-eclampsia or placental abruption situation) is not ever considered an abortion. It would never be outlawed. I’m so sick of this. I’ve met so many women who gone through this- it isn’t an abortion, no one argues that it is, except the left throws it out there an exploits it, shouts “what if women become forced to carry a baby that will kill them because abortion has become illegal?!” Not an abortion to begin with. Not even close. And yeah that doesn’t even touch on the devaluing of children with disabilities and all life in general.
Also, I am sorry for your difficult pregnancies. It is so heart wrenching and terrifying. Mine were difficult as in after my first one died, I feared all the others would too (they didn’t - I have 3 living). I know what the terror of the daily monitoring is like, but not the experience of the extreme interventions. I’m sorry you’ve endured all this.
I am sorry for your loss, and I am not defending abortion. I wrote what I wrote because in that instance I knew it to be true. Still birth is a terrible tragedy. but that is not what I was addressing. I only say that this highly emotional issue is not black and white, and that there are cases where other options are not there. Abortion is not a new horror. In prior centuries women threw themselves down staircases. In the last century there were a bevy of similar horrors. If the court overrules Roe, it will go to the states, many of which are pro choice. Clearly there needs to be law that is more carefully considered and written that protects the fetus at least at the point of viability. And I believe that will come.
Abortion is the killing of a living human being with a beating heart, intentionally. There is no anti-abortion law that forbids inducing delivery to help a woman whose child is already deceased. Stop lying. It is appalling.
Understanding your position, I must beg your pardon as I do not lie. Not in my nature. I only spoke of one instance where I knew it to be true. The information came from the nurse in that doctor's office.
I’d be interested in knowing what you find out .
Dr. George Tiller Wichita Kansas May 2009 . several msm articles on his murder
What does this have to do with a stillborn baby being considered an abortion? I tried to look it up. If it is related somehow, one effed up situation shouldn’t be used to say “some states have laws that say inducing a mom
pregnant with a stillborn baby is considered an abortion.” That is just false.
As I am not an attorney and do not have the time to research the state laws for 50 states, I cannot answer you. I repeated what was stated by the nurse in Tiller's office. Just drop this already
Perhaps. But it happens, just as I wrote it. You can verify that with research.
Cite an actual statute.
Not true.
Had they not pushed the abortions past the first trimester and celebrated full term and partial birth(which is infanticide) maybe today would be different. In many countries the legislature past abortion laws not unelected judges. That’s how it should be.
Let’s get real people. It takes a man and a woman to get pregnant. I hear a lot of men saying they are against abortion. Men you have no right to a vote if you irresponsibly keep sticking your dicks in women’s vaginas! Keep your dicks in your pants or man up and take responsibility for your child. Until you know what it’s like to get pregnant, carry a baby and deliver it through your vagina or have it cut out by c-section, this is a women’s vote in my book!!
And as far as rape is concerned, the rapist should go to jail and have no paternity rights for putting a women in a position, where she will have no right to choose!!
Are you sure we can still define “men” and “women”?
Aside from that question, this is an issue for all women and men. We all have a stake in stopping this evil, destructive practice. Personal responsibility is the starting point for everyone. Then the outliers (rape, health risks, etc.) can be dealt with on a case by case basis in a reasonable manner.
What Senate Democrats proposed Thursday is ghoulish and far more radical than any other Western nation. Do we want to be more like the PRC or DPRK?
While I understand your point and am with you on most issues, I don’t believe most people “celebrate” abortion. It is a heart-wrenching decision for most women who consider it, and as a man, I must leave the decision on this issue to women. Women must decide on this, not men.
Nearly half of abortions are not the woman’s first. Kind of lets the air out of the heart-rending decision theory.
Maybe previously. Now abortion is celebrated! See TikTok for heartbreaking videos of women dancing joyously about their abortions.
I am STUNNED at the women who participate in "Shout your abortion!"
What? You're PROUD of it?
This is the most vulgar demonstration I've ever seen.
Absolutely sick.
I’m sure some do, and it is horrible. This is why I said “most.” TikTok videos, or any other social media posts, don’t provide greater contexts.
Nah, you’re wrong. There has definitely been an attitude shift among those who are pro-abortion. Instead of being ashamed they shout their abortion.
I don't have a dog in the abortion fight, and thankfully was never in a position to be a participant in a decision to abort a child that I was partly responsible for making. That said, I cannot imagine anyone so heartless that doing that would be a cause for anything other than the deepest of sorrows. That it's treated in this country as casually as it is, indeed actually celebrated, by government leaders, members of the press, and the artistic community, is indicative of a rot that goes far deeper than the abortion fight. I'm afraid we're witnessing real time the inevitable decline of what could have been a wonderful country. I feel sorry for the world we're leaving behind for our (unaborted) children.
Who says? Who says it’s treated casually? The media ? Ask some women - you won’t find many at all where the decision is wasn’t an agonizing final option.
well, the aforementioned tic tockers doing their celebratory abortion dances seem to have treated their decisions very casually
The media. The women “shouting their abortion.” For some it’s agonizing. And I think others it’s a casual decision where the aftermath become unexpectedly agonizing bc they weren’t educated about the grief that would come as a result of their decision. Still some percentage (hopefully small) don’t care at all (the shout your abortion freaks). The government and media are creating a culture/society in which we do not value life.
Amen!!
One thing that bothers me is seeing young women cheer for abortion rights.
It’s not political at all, the left is making it that way with their, as usual, fear mongering. Look, if you’re pro abortion just vote for the lunatic that agrees with you in your state. End of discussion from a political standpoint.
Maybe last year i was reading up and it seems the real argument was missed, that being when does life begin? Science says conception but like Covid the so called scientists, doctors, not to mention clergy, will twist it to fit the narrative. Alito is right, it is unconstitutional to take life. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. We have double murder for pregnant homicides, but no accountability for in the womb, now outside the womb? Wow. Yet i too am pro choice. I choose to live and let live. Abortion is anti life and pro death. Reproductive blah blah... planned parentless could give a crap about you, just bring your freakin money, er, ID. Seems like i have heard that $ theme here before. Abortion proponents seem to be women saying you can't tell me how i am going to have my sex, consequences be damned because i don't have to pay for it. Oh maybe not now, but they will pay down the road emotionally and psychologically. It is only human. And what if they have no remorse? I have no doubt anti lifers love all people too. If you agree with them. BTW, my four siblings and i are adopted.
It’s the left-wing demand for “liberation,” refusing to accept any responsibility for actions.
Yes. At what point did obligation to others that you are responsible for (and to) become no longer honorable?
Here's hoping! (And praying.)
Why can’t we just be like the Europeans and agree that no abortions past 3 months when we start talking about an actual person?
Yes
If a baby survives an abortion, it is subsequently left to die by the mothers and doctors in several states, even though it's no longer technically a fetus
Anyone who kills a baby is a murderer.
As is the government bureaucrat that forces a woman to term when the doctor has told her the birth will kill her and it does.
If childbirth will kill someone, they should have a tubal ligation before having sex.
Any society, such as ours, in which a significant segment society elevates infanticide to a sacrament, is a society that can only be called degenerate.
Can we retro-actively abort Joe Biden?
Apt and the irony is inescapable. This need to make it a celebration is more than a little evil.
I am pro-choice. However, the reason I am pro-choice is simply because I do not believe the government should have any say in the personal health decisions of any person. That being said, there are certain facts I cannot reconcile in my mind. First, it is not a clump of cells; it is a human being. Second, the women’s rights movement supporters, which I see myself as a member, need to recognize abortions kill girls/future women, too. Third, as I feel no one should have a say in another’s body, at it’s core abortion is a decision involving the body of another. It is definitely not an issue to be taken or talked about lightly or dismissively or grotesquely. It is a private and personal decision which should be discussed as the nuclear option and the tragedy it actually is.
Bret and Heather Weinstein had a great tangential/peripheral discussion on how upside down the views are about casual sex right now, and how women are fighting to protect attitudes that do not serve them well.
In particular, they were talking about how males seem somewhat evolutionarily programmed to seek out females that will allow sex without responsibility of raising kids, and women, conversely should be programmed to keep that at bay and only copulate with men who are likely to be responsible enough to stick around and help out. The attitudes of the day with regard to casual sex, seem to benefit men more than women. Yet women want to fight for the right to behave like the least admirable males. (Feminism seems to do that in other areas too. Rather than focusing on say, being a more compassionate alternative to males, they want to say "we can be just as ruthless as men can" )
I think it's also quite a bit more prevalent in white guys than in other races
They also don't like to address the pesky issue about the link between sex trafficking and abortion and disproportionately affects black women because they are trafficked in higher numbers per the population. There are pimps that use it for birth control. There is research available easily found if you google. But no one ever talks about THAT. And that other pesky issue - money to be made off of stem cell research. Its always about the money.
Alex you are right on. Whether legal or illegal, it is nothing to be celebrated or be proud of.
Thanks for this compassionate and insightful post.
Right on Alex! Regardless, abortion should NOT be celebrated!
americans will always say that theirs is the best country in the world.
and they honestly mean it.
it is because they do not have a clue about the rest of the world.
they simply cannot grasp the fact that although abortion laws are far more liberal in western european countries, the number of abortions in those countries are but a fraction of the number of abortions in the usa.
making abortions illegal does not prevent abortions.
avoiding unwanted pregnancies does.
so maybe americans should come over and take a look at how things work over here.
but hey, why should they, having the best country in the world.....
"they simply cannot grasp the fact that although abortion laws are far more liberal in western european countries..."
I don't think that's true. I don't think western Europe (nor most of the rest of the world) has late-term abortions and partial-birth abortions, for example, abortion on demand. I think America is part of a group of 6 or 7 countries with the most liberal - read "abhorrent" - abortion practices. The others include Cuba, North Korea, South Korea, Vietnam, Canada, and China. Pretty much a group you don't write home about.
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/frc-report-abortion-demand-6-countries-us-china-n-korea-s-korea
"Most"? What's the source of that claim?
By whom, the Left or the Right?