Do I sense a trend here, Mr. Berenson? The steppingstones to addiction in our culture aren’t marijuana and alcohol, they are caffeine and nicotine.
Go to any rehab, and watch people, especially early in recovery just downing the coffees and bargaining for any cigarette break.
Personally, I’m not a caffeine fan from coffee, I won’t lie, I used to drink my one monster, and I get my caffeine tablets where I can. But you gotta keep it realistic, moderation is the hallmark of success.
Take it easy folks, I’m waiting for Mr. Berenson to finally have a post that talks about the realities of life, be safe and well.
@Divided- that's because their frontal lobes are craving stimulation. Ever notice those with ADHD are smokers? It's the nicotine. Ritalin is a stimulant originally marketed for narcolepsy but they found it helped those with ADHD whose frontal lobes needed a bit of push.
Don’t hear a lot of impacts of nicotine for ADD, actually, schizophrenics report from cigarettes a reduction in auditory hallucinations, but they smoke 2+ packs a day so the physical effects of that kind of smoking takes them out a lot sooner than they should pass away…
How many studies have said coffee is good for you then a few years later it's not and now it's good again? Same with red wine, whole fat dairy, etc. It always reminds me of Woody Allen in Sleeper, when they bring him back to life after he's been dead for 100 years and he can't understand that all his friends are dead, even though they ate such healthy foods. And they explain that they've also learned that greasy hamburgers are good for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=485Em2JF34M
You could follow the headlines for advice, or search for people in science who are examining the data and reaching conclusions or at least qualified opinions. Rhonda Patrick for one has decided coffee is good overall, and if brewed with paper filters removes the compounds that raise LDL. How and when you drink it matters. I've changed to drinking it at least one hour after waking, preferably 90 minutes. There is the coffee nap. Brew, cool with ice cubes, slug it down, then take a 20 minute nap. Wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed.
Oddly enough, Sensible Medicine published an article about this study. They weren’t impressed for many reasons. It’s a good analysis that I would recommend reading.
You can learn good health habits by thinking about how people lived for hundreds of thousands of years. As Alex says, get sunlight. Walk. Eat raw vegetables and some cooked meat. Squat—a normal human position that almost no one does anymore. Try to enjoy life and reduce stress. Build some upper body strength with weights and machines.
The SM article does not disprove anything. It is full of skepticism about any study on causation of complex morbidities - fine enough, but skepticism is not proof - and explains several things that maybe, might have, could have distorted the results. It's more of a general complaint about observational studies than any kind of rigorous take down.
Everything you just mentioned about SM article about this study you can apply to an observational study as this one. I am more impressed with doctors writing about how misleading these purported studies can be.
I've often joked that since we've been getting conflicting studies on coffee several times a year for what seems like decades- I drink one cup a day. If it's good for me maybe I'm getting just a little benefit. If it's bad for me hopefully not enough to do significant damage. Maybe I'm safe drinking 2 cups a day?
Clinical nutritionist Stephen Cherniske really opened my eyes to caffeine with his 2008 book “Caffeine Blues” (https://a.co/d/09Qa3aFE). The substance is a neurotoxin produced by coffee and tea plants to ward off insects. I’m surprised it helps against dementia as it harms bodily symptoms like cardiovascular system and contributes to anxiety. I think you’d love the book, Alex, as he’s an investigative reporter driven for the truth even when it countered his own coffee drinking habits. Getting off coffee has been the best thing for my health in years!
I have a sneaking hunch that pretty much everything plants produce to defend themselves from the perils of predation are compounds that we humans find enjoyable, if not always addictive.
Not being a nutritionist or botanist, I have absolutely no educational or professional training to make this observation! I'm simply an observer of Nature's tendency to provide evolutionary solutions to pretty much every problem living things have to endure long enough to propagate.
Valid or not, I’m sticking with it! Coffee is one of the few pleasures I have left. Caution: John Mandrola, MD, after complimenting your journalism, explained why the results of the study should be viewed with skepticism.
I'll take mine BLACK please, preferably freshly ground from fresh beans then steeped in water previously brought to a rolling boil for a couple of minutes.
I think that the uplift that caffeinated coffee gives you has anti-depressant qualities.
I've read many articles that list depression as a risk factor for dementia. Actually, I'm getting tired of those risk-factor-for-dementia articles. They always omit the main risk factor: living to extreme old age (85+).
As to those nurses' studies: I've been a nurse since 1974. I've never seen nurses as a group as healthier than anyone else or more knowledgeable when it comes to nutrition.
At one point I toyed with the idea of becoming a registered dietitian. I took 30 undergraduate credits in nutrition and food science (this was 1984-1986) in preparation to enter a master's program. Then I realized that my nutrition classes lacked consensus; a lot of the content was merely theory, not fact. So, I remained in nursing.
Alkaloids like caffeine, nicotine, and theobromine seem to have many positive and negative effects. We’d probably all be better off if we never used any of them, but we do, we’re addicted, and we like them. Whereas nicotine from tobacco and theobromine from cacao are usually consumed alongside all sorts of toxins, coffee and tea drinkers more often take it straight or with less junk added in.
So perhaps the caffeine lowers dementia risks directly, or perhaps the coffee ritual and the extra alertness lead to a better social life and indirectly to better health. We’ll never know. Bur boatloads of Northern Europeans mainline jugs of coffee daily and even bigger boatloads of East Asians guzzle jugs of tea daily, and these are the two healthiest regions of the world (while caffeine-avoiding Utah is the healthiest part of the US)—so you can be healthy whether or not you consume caffeine, therefore do what your body tells you is right!
At some point in the early 70's, a study proposing that coffee was very bad indeed got my parents' attention, and they gave it up. They were in their early 50's and not given to following health trends, but I vividly remember the awful smell of the chicory drink my mom had in place of her usual coffee. My dad couldn't stomach the chicory, so he drank hot water. As a teenager I thought they'd lost their minds. It didn't last long; another study came along that debunked the earlier one, and a few years later when yet another study said Coffee Bad!, my folks ignored it. I'll be over here with my second cup of coffee.
"In the group of almost 87,000 female nurses, the ones who drank the most coffee — over four eight-ounce cups per day, on average, or almost 300 milligrams of caffeine — had about 70 percent fewer cases of dementia than those who did not drink coffee."
*Four* 8-ounce cups amounting to not even 300mg of caffeine, less than 75mg per cup? That's pretty weak tea (so to speak), or as my father would say, "dirty water." 😁 My wife's coffee has 125mg or so of caffeine per cup.
Anyway, this is all good news, Alex -- thanks for the report! 👍
Yes and a recent heart rhythm study revealed coffee drinkers actually had a decreased risk of developing a second episode of atrial fibrillation - a heart rhythm that can lead to a stroke.
First thought I had: what are the people who don’t drink tea or coffee drinking instead? I doubt most of them are only drinking water. Perhaps they are drinking sugary sodas instead. This could possibly contribute to dementia.
In other words, it’s not that drinking coffee/tea reduces dementia risk, but rather that the other stuff increases dementia risk.
I LOVE coffee!!! I endorse this study.
Do I sense a trend here, Mr. Berenson? The steppingstones to addiction in our culture aren’t marijuana and alcohol, they are caffeine and nicotine.
Go to any rehab, and watch people, especially early in recovery just downing the coffees and bargaining for any cigarette break.
Personally, I’m not a caffeine fan from coffee, I won’t lie, I used to drink my one monster, and I get my caffeine tablets where I can. But you gotta keep it realistic, moderation is the hallmark of success.
Take it easy folks, I’m waiting for Mr. Berenson to finally have a post that talks about the realities of life, be safe and well.
@Divided- that's because their frontal lobes are craving stimulation. Ever notice those with ADHD are smokers? It's the nicotine. Ritalin is a stimulant originally marketed for narcolepsy but they found it helped those with ADHD whose frontal lobes needed a bit of push.
Don’t hear a lot of impacts of nicotine for ADD, actually, schizophrenics report from cigarettes a reduction in auditory hallucinations, but they smoke 2+ packs a day so the physical effects of that kind of smoking takes them out a lot sooner than they should pass away…
In what world does drinking coffee lead to marijuana? Only in your imagination.
Yeah, dismiss my experiences with people in recovery for decades…
Duhmboy….
If you think coffee leads to deeper addictions, you have not learned much after decades and have dismissed yourself.
How many studies have said coffee is good for you then a few years later it's not and now it's good again? Same with red wine, whole fat dairy, etc. It always reminds me of Woody Allen in Sleeper, when they bring him back to life after he's been dead for 100 years and he can't understand that all his friends are dead, even though they ate such healthy foods. And they explain that they've also learned that greasy hamburgers are good for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=485Em2JF34M
Exactly. Coffee goes in and out of favor just like red wine. Which means that both enjoyed in moderation probably have little effect on longevity.
Moderation in all things is probably the key.
You could follow the headlines for advice, or search for people in science who are examining the data and reaching conclusions or at least qualified opinions. Rhonda Patrick for one has decided coffee is good overall, and if brewed with paper filters removes the compounds that raise LDL. How and when you drink it matters. I've changed to drinking it at least one hour after waking, preferably 90 minutes. There is the coffee nap. Brew, cool with ice cubes, slug it down, then take a 20 minute nap. Wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed.
Oddly enough, Sensible Medicine published an article about this study. They weren’t impressed for many reasons. It’s a good analysis that I would recommend reading.
You can learn good health habits by thinking about how people lived for hundreds of thousands of years. As Alex says, get sunlight. Walk. Eat raw vegetables and some cooked meat. Squat—a normal human position that almost no one does anymore. Try to enjoy life and reduce stress. Build some upper body strength with weights and machines.
Excellent recommendations!
The SM article does not disprove anything. It is full of skepticism about any study on causation of complex morbidities - fine enough, but skepticism is not proof - and explains several things that maybe, might have, could have distorted the results. It's more of a general complaint about observational studies than any kind of rigorous take down.
Everything you just mentioned about SM article about this study you can apply to an observational study as this one. I am more impressed with doctors writing about how misleading these purported studies can be.
That’s true and important to remember about observational studies.
Just finished reading it. I highly recommend.
I also read Sensible Medicine's article and highly recommend it as well.
Not really odd. Berenson and Mandrola had an exchange on X leading up to both of them publishing their Substack articles.
Interesting. I’m not on X. I think Dr. Mandrola is a subscriber to UT?
I've often joked that since we've been getting conflicting studies on coffee several times a year for what seems like decades- I drink one cup a day. If it's good for me maybe I'm getting just a little benefit. If it's bad for me hopefully not enough to do significant damage. Maybe I'm safe drinking 2 cups a day?
Clinical nutritionist Stephen Cherniske really opened my eyes to caffeine with his 2008 book “Caffeine Blues” (https://a.co/d/09Qa3aFE). The substance is a neurotoxin produced by coffee and tea plants to ward off insects. I’m surprised it helps against dementia as it harms bodily symptoms like cardiovascular system and contributes to anxiety. I think you’d love the book, Alex, as he’s an investigative reporter driven for the truth even when it countered his own coffee drinking habits. Getting off coffee has been the best thing for my health in years!
I have a sneaking hunch that pretty much everything plants produce to defend themselves from the perils of predation are compounds that we humans find enjoyable, if not always addictive.
Not being a nutritionist or botanist, I have absolutely no educational or professional training to make this observation! I'm simply an observer of Nature's tendency to provide evolutionary solutions to pretty much every problem living things have to endure long enough to propagate.
Valid or not, I’m sticking with it! Coffee is one of the few pleasures I have left. Caution: John Mandrola, MD, after complimenting your journalism, explained why the results of the study should be viewed with skepticism.
Love my coffee, make it the “bulletproof” way; coconut oil, collagen protein, grass fed butter and manuka honey. Outstanding
Do you put all that stuff in your coffee??
Yes, a teaspoon of each, put it in a blender with coffee and blend it for a few seconds. Comes out frothy and delicious and smooth.
Yikes....
I'll take mine BLACK please, preferably freshly ground from fresh beans then steeped in water previously brought to a rolling boil for a couple of minutes.
Beans & water. Essential nutrition.
Hey, I get it. My way has no sugar, essential fats for energy (no crash), cuts down appetite and tastes fantastic.
I think that the uplift that caffeinated coffee gives you has anti-depressant qualities.
I've read many articles that list depression as a risk factor for dementia. Actually, I'm getting tired of those risk-factor-for-dementia articles. They always omit the main risk factor: living to extreme old age (85+).
As to those nurses' studies: I've been a nurse since 1974. I've never seen nurses as a group as healthier than anyone else or more knowledgeable when it comes to nutrition.
At one point I toyed with the idea of becoming a registered dietitian. I took 30 undergraduate credits in nutrition and food science (this was 1984-1986) in preparation to enter a master's program. Then I realized that my nutrition classes lacked consensus; a lot of the content was merely theory, not fact. So, I remained in nursing.
"I've never seen nurses as a group as healthier than anyone else or more knowledgeable when it comes to nutrition."
Lovely observation that. Parallels one of my favorite phrases: "Physician, heal thyself!"
Alkaloids like caffeine, nicotine, and theobromine seem to have many positive and negative effects. We’d probably all be better off if we never used any of them, but we do, we’re addicted, and we like them. Whereas nicotine from tobacco and theobromine from cacao are usually consumed alongside all sorts of toxins, coffee and tea drinkers more often take it straight or with less junk added in.
So perhaps the caffeine lowers dementia risks directly, or perhaps the coffee ritual and the extra alertness lead to a better social life and indirectly to better health. We’ll never know. Bur boatloads of Northern Europeans mainline jugs of coffee daily and even bigger boatloads of East Asians guzzle jugs of tea daily, and these are the two healthiest regions of the world (while caffeine-avoiding Utah is the healthiest part of the US)—so you can be healthy whether or not you consume caffeine, therefore do what your body tells you is right!
Don't forget the Blue Zone of Loma Linda with those there who also eschew caffeine.
At some point in the early 70's, a study proposing that coffee was very bad indeed got my parents' attention, and they gave it up. They were in their early 50's and not given to following health trends, but I vividly remember the awful smell of the chicory drink my mom had in place of her usual coffee. My dad couldn't stomach the chicory, so he drank hot water. As a teenager I thought they'd lost their minds. It didn't last long; another study came along that debunked the earlier one, and a few years later when yet another study said Coffee Bad!, my folks ignored it. I'll be over here with my second cup of coffee.
"In the group of almost 87,000 female nurses, the ones who drank the most coffee — over four eight-ounce cups per day, on average, or almost 300 milligrams of caffeine — had about 70 percent fewer cases of dementia than those who did not drink coffee."
*Four* 8-ounce cups amounting to not even 300mg of caffeine, less than 75mg per cup? That's pretty weak tea (so to speak), or as my father would say, "dirty water." 😁 My wife's coffee has 125mg or so of caffeine per cup.
Anyway, this is all good news, Alex -- thanks for the report! 👍
My morning coffee is something I literally look forward to everyday! I 💕 this study !!!!
Wait, wait! Juan Valdez isn't real? Then who gets those coffee beans?
He got el plomo from El Exigente!
He looked real in Bruce Almighty…
His wife Juanita.
It is good for man to be married, I agree.
Alex has made a mistake, Juan Valdez is real!
And drinking coffee has given him great vitality and longevity!
Yes and a recent heart rhythm study revealed coffee drinkers actually had a decreased risk of developing a second episode of atrial fibrillation - a heart rhythm that can lead to a stroke.
If two cups are good for you.....a pot of coffee must be great for you?? Probably not......
First thought I had: what are the people who don’t drink tea or coffee drinking instead? I doubt most of them are only drinking water. Perhaps they are drinking sugary sodas instead. This could possibly contribute to dementia.
In other words, it’s not that drinking coffee/tea reduces dementia risk, but rather that the other stuff increases dementia risk.